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Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

Ken Schweizer
 

Hi Mark,

 

I know this topic has been beaten to death, but we had a situation that caused some very hard feelings because a member didn't read the auto unsubscribe message as was intended, but read into it what they had feared.

 

In our case this long-time member has been hesitant to post to the group and the auto-Unsubscribe-message coincidently went out the day after their first post. I believe the member read the auto post as saying that they were unsubscribed due to posting a message the owners thought was SPAM. In our case the member's primary language is English, thus a language barrier is not the issue. I believe the member quickly read the auto-message, read what they had "FEARED MAY" be the reaction to their post and reacted emotionally to what they "THOUGHT" was intended in the auto-message.

 

I don't think we can be too simplistic when telling a member that they have been removed from a group. I'd like to suggest a few small changes, including strategic CAPITALIZATION, to the message to ensure our members read it as intended.

 

You have been automatically removed from GROUPNAME because "YOUR" Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages "SENT TO YOU" from GROUPNAME has been marked as spam "BY YOU OR YOUR E-MAIL PROVIDER and NOT DUE TO ANY POST FROM YOU". We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if "YOUR" Email Service Provider has diverted legitimate messages into it.

 

Thanks for your consideration,

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Personally, I don't like the use of all caps because it is considered yelling in cyber parlance.

Yet, I like the idea you have.  The use of bold, italic, and/or underline as appropriate in the phrases you have capitalized should give as much, if not more, emphasis than the all caps does.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

     Presenting the willfully ignorant with facts is the very definition of casting pearls before swine.

              ~ Brian Vogel

Ken Schweizer
 

Brian,

 

I would agree with not using caps if we were only dealing with cyber savvy people, but in many cases our members have no idea the caps suggest they are being yelled at, but it does bring their attention to the words and their meaning.

 

Yet, you make a good point.

 

Ken

 

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.

Not to speak is to speak.

Not to act is to act.”

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

,_._,_

Sharon Villines
 

On Apr 26, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Ken Schweizer <@KenSch> wrote:

I don't think we can be too simplistic when telling a member that they have been removed from a group. I'd like to suggest a few small changes, including strategic CAPITALIZATION, to the message to ensure our members read it as intended.

You have been automatically removed from GROUPNAME because "YOUR" Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages "SENT TO YOU" from GROUPNAME has been marked as spam "BY YOU OR YOUR E-MAIL PROVIDER and NOT DUE TO ANY POST FROM YOU". We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if "YOUR" Email Service Provider has diverted legitimate messages into it.
The age of list members makes a huge difference on email lists. I have a range of people from 90 to 21. Older people have a huge problem understanding all the routing and who does what in email. I still can’t get direct answers when I ask “Do you read on the web or do you download messages to an email program.” I have to ask "what browser do you use” and that totally confuses the Outlook users. Then the confusion about yahoo the email account, yahoo the website, etc. Google is a nightmare.

As people die, this problem will go away but I have people in their 40s who get stressed and confused, so that time is still out there some place in the future. A deadline to meet when your email goes down can produce frenzy. And the more Groups.io has enterprise accounts, the more frequent this will be.

One of the best ways to emphasize a statement is white space between short sentences and center them.

bbbbbbbbb

cccc

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
TakomaDC@Groups.io
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD

Ken Schweizer
 

Another confusing factor with the Auto-Message is that it appears to be coming from the Owner of the member's group rather than from GROUPS.IO itself as can be seen in the FAQ sample message. In our case that was a major factor in the member's reaction. I find it unusual and confusing for the "email group service" to send a message in the name of one of its groups.

From: groupname+owner@groups.io

To: (Whom it may concern)
Subject:
You have been removed from ...

Ken

 

“If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” — Winston Churchill

 

 

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 03:57 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
Older people have a huge problem understanding all the routing and who does what in email. I still can’t get direct answers when I ask “Do you read on the web or do you download messages to an email program.” I have to ask "what browser do you use” and that totally confuses the Outlook users. Then the confusion about yahoo the email account, yahoo the website, etc. Google is a nightmare.

As people die, this problem will go away
Sharon, what follows is not, in any way, intended as an argument with what you've said but really reinforcing its core points while tossing out a few of the "around the edges" assertions.

I am in my mid-50s, and had my degree in computer science granted in 1984.  I have been involved in IT in some capacity ever since, sometimes more so than others, but it's been continuous in one way or another.

It's not just older people who have the problem understanding the "under the hood" aspects of computing in general and e-mail in particular.   There is an age demographic, of which I am a part, that came of "computer age" when the end of punch cards was drawing nigh and the birth of the PC was just beginning.  Nothing was really "automatic" at that point and if you intended to use computers you had to have at least a decent knowledge of how to be a "software mechanic" at the very least.

I've always understood why those 60 (at the very lowest end, probably) and up have no real knowledge of any "under the hood" aspects of computers because they came to them, if they came to them, after things had become very automated (say, the Windows 7 era and on), and so didn't need to.  They also tend to have a fear factor related to computers of the "if I do {insert virtually anything here} will I break it!} type.

Now we have the demographic significantly younger, I'd say under 40 for the most part, that came of age when their entry point was after everything was automatic.  They tend to be end users extraordinaire, but they often have little knowledge of the correct terminology for anything (e-mail client?  What's an e-mail client? though they tend to get webmail as a concept but cannot fathom that Gmail on their Android phone is not webmail, but an e-mail client or something very similar anyway).   If anything goes wrong they're like most people are with their cars, on the phone to someone to get it fixed without ever thinking about what goes into fixing it.

I don't think that these issues are going to go away due to "die off," at least not the core issues of not knowing, not understanding, and not caring to do either and getting frustrated when those attempting to assist require way more precise information than, "It's not working!!," in order to do so.   I get the generic, "It's not working!!," from both my elderly clients and college students.   I seldom do from those above 40 and under 60 at this point in time, and of course both of those end points are constantly shifting up and "the dinosaurs among us" who get this stuff will soon enough be dying off.   I wonder just how much of a very small "dark art" working in nuts and bolts hardware and software manipulation and repair, the "under the hood" knowledge and ability to apply it, is going to become?
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

     Presenting the willfully ignorant with facts is the very definition of casting pearls before swine.

              ~ Brian Vogel

Sharon Villines
 

On Apr 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
I agree with all your points — and just as soon as we learn what we are doing, things will change again. I groan every time Apple updates the iOS. I use the iPhone minimally and don’t need almost any of the wonderful new features that actually just make reentry difficult.

They also tend to have a fear factor related to computers of the "if I do {insert virtually anything here} will I break it!} type.
This is one problem with HTML in wikis. The people in my cohousing community are very good at entering information about facilities repairs and replacements. The love it. But if I use a wiki that has any HTML on the screen, they are convinced the whole thing will crash if they put their cursor in the wrong place.

It’s like a visual block.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
http://www.takomavillage.org

Dave Sergeant
 

As well as the points already discussed, it is worth pointing out that
the process of being removed for marking as spam and the resulting
email exchange is as far as I know unique to groups.io. I know of no
other email list service, or forum for that matter, that does this. So
to get a strange email, from an address that in itself is different
from normal list postings, with this rather strange content and
instructions can only be confusing, even to those who are computer
savvy.

I know the reason Mark has added this process to groups.io but why does
nobody else do similar?

Dave

http://davesergeant.com

ro-esp
 

On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Ken Schweizer wrote:


Another confusing factor with the Auto-Message is that it appears to be coming
from the Owner of the member's group rather than from GROUPS.IO itself as can
be seen in the FAQ sample message. In our case that was a major factor in the
member's reaction. I find it unusual and confusing for the "email group
service" to send a message in the name of one of its groups.
Yes. Since there is no owner/moderator activity involved, it would be better to have it read something like "system@groups.io" as sender

groetjes, Ronaldo

 

Ronaldo,

Since there is no owner/moderator activity involved, it would be
better to have it read something like "system@groups.io" as sender
My suggestion would be:

From: The Groups.io Team <groupname+owner@groups.io>

That would use a Display Name reflecting the signature within the message, while preserving the From address so that any reply from the (former) member will go to the group owners/mods.

In most email interfaces I've used the Display Name is more prominent than the actual address, so I think this would address the concern.

Shal

 

Dave,

I know the reason Mark has added this process to groups.io but why
does nobody else do similar?
You asked this before:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/16403
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/16418

Shal

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 09:31 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

> Since there is no owner/moderator activity involved, it would be
> better to have it read something like "system@groups.io" as sender

My suggestion would be:

From: The Groups.io Team <groupname+owner@groups.io>
Sorry, you seem to have missed my point: I want to make it clear that the process is automatic, and that the unsubbing was NOT a deliberate action by some moderator/owner.

That would use a Display Name reflecting the signature within the
message, while preserving the From address so that any reply from the
(former) member will go to the group owners/mods.
I don't see anything wrong in having replies to such notifications going to the moderators

In most email interfaces I've used the Display Name is more prominent
than the actual address, so I think this would address the concern.
You lost me here...

groetjes, Ronaldo

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 06:01 AM, ro-esp wrote:
In most email interfaces I've used the Display Name is more prominent
than the actual address, so I think this would address the concern.
You lost me here...
When you see something like:

             The Groups.io Team <xyz+owner@groups.io>

do you immediately think, "Oh, that's a message from the owner that they sent," or, "That's an automated message"?

Most of us will think the latter because, "The Groups.io Team," the display name, is what is considered the most indicative of the origin, regardless of the actual address shown with it.  An alternate display name is often used as a mechanism to differentiate such.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

     Presenting the willfully ignorant with facts is the very definition of casting pearls before swine.

              ~ Brian Vogel

Ken Schweizer
 

Hi Shal,

I believe your suggestion would resolve the issue for most of the non-technical people who now believe their group moderator unsubscribed them. Those who look at the actual return address probable are savvy enough to understand what happened.

My suggestion would be:

From: The Groups.io Team <groupname+owner@groups.io>
Shal
Ken

“Some people occasionally stumble across the truth. But then they pick themselves right up and move on like nothing happened.”
Winston Churchill

ro-esp
 

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 04:17 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

When you see something like:

             The Groups.io Team <xyz+owner@groups.io>

do you immediately think, "Oh, that's a message from the owner that they
sent," or, "That's an automated message"?
"<xyz+owner@groups.io>" by itself makes me think it comes from a moderator of the xyz group

"The Groups.io Team" makes me think there's a small group of individuals, and one of them is responsible - or it's just spam.

Without reading the message that is....
groetjes, Ronaldo

 

Hi Ken,

Unfortunately people are going to mis-read things, regardless of what they say. Especially with pre-conceived notions. That said, I've tweaked the message a bit. It now starts:

You have been automatically removed from GROUPNAME because your Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages sent to you from GROUPNAME has been marked as spam.

We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Email Service Provider has diverted other legitimate messages into it.

Thanks, Mark

Ken Schweizer
 

Hi Mark,

 

Thank you. That will help those who aren't computer savy.

 

Ken

 

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." God

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Fletcher
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:15 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

 

Hi Ken,

Unfortunately people are going to mis-read things, regardless of what they say. Especially with pre-conceived notions. That said, I've tweaked the message a bit. It now starts:

You have been automatically removed from GROUPNAME because your Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages sent to you from GROUPNAME has been marked as spam.

We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Email Service Provider has diverted other legitimate messages into it.

Thanks, Mark

Bob Bellizzi
 

The current process is actually incomplete.
Groups.io attempts to send a message to the person whose service provider or themselves, marked a message as spam.  This message has a link to enable the member to automatically rejoin their group(s?).
Groups.io also sends a message on the Group Owner channel (to Owners and all eligible Moderators) that this action has happened.  This message does not have the link for the user!

BUT, in many cases, the message is never actually seen by the targeted person because, well, output from groups.io is permanently marked as spam!

Owners could reclaim many of these people if you were to put the specific link for the unsubscribed person into the message to the owner.
We could then use our own email which is not marked as spam to inform the member in time to recover their account.

Most members are not rocket scientists and my latest to run afoul of this was removed for marking spam on May 21 and didn't notice it until last week even though they are on Daily Digest, duh!
--

Bob Bellizzi

Patty Sliney
 

Yup, Bob.  I mentioned this some time ago to Mark: That auto email to instantly restore their membership will most likely never been seen by the removed member because it is now being routed as well to that list member's Spam folder. No real options were ever suggested, more of a, "well, this is just the way it has to be, because we're a small platform, and the email programs/ISP just don't know about us."  So, myself and my list mods are now forced to send unsubbed list members a manual email from our personal email accounts that states the following:

You were automatically unsubscribed by Groups.io from our <name of group> list on Groups.io because either you or your email program/ISP marked one of our list messages as spam.  Most likely, you emptied your Spam folder and didn't check the emails prior to emptying that folder. By doing that, you could have accidentally told your email program and/or ISP that our Groups.io emails are spam.  So, be SURE to check your Spam/Junk folder very carefully before just emptying it, for our list emails, and mark them as "NOT SPAM", please.  Sometimes it is nothing a list member does, but their ISP does.

The good news is, you were JUST send an auto re-subscription email from groups.io.  You have 7 days to click on the link in that email, to restore your membership.  Please be sure to look in your Spam folder, as well as your inbox for that email.  Click on the link in the email, and you will be instantly restored as a list member.


I am still not a fan of this method of managing Blacklisting/Whitelisting.  There is no other group I'm on, on any other platform (big or small) that uses this method to manage their Blacklisting issues.  For my groups, most of my list members are not particularly computer-savvy, so we lose members through this process.  Not all get themselves re-subscribed, some don't even see our message until after the link expiration, and then we have to spend time asking them to send in a new membership request.  I feel like this is an awful lot of uncessary work for list owners/mods.  Not the best system, and a strange one in my opinion.

Patty S.

Douglas Swearingen
 

In my group I am co-owner of, I have very little problem with this.  The group is a chronic pain group, so these members have many problems with pain.  I send out a reminder at the beginning of each month from the owners email address to all the members reminding them of what happens if they delete a e-mail from groups.io from their spam folder.  If they do this, I send an e-mail asking if they really want to leave the group.  In the email sent out the 1st of each month I tell them to look for a link to resubscribe.  Since this is a private group they can always reapply for membership and their request will be immediately processed.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Doug


From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> on behalf of Patty Sliney via Groups.Io <hoosierquilt@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:35 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification #featurerequest
 
Yup, Bob.  I mentioned this some time ago to Mark: That auto email to instantly restore their membership will most likely never been seen by the removed member because it is now being routed as well to that list member's Spam folder. No real options were ever suggested, more of a, "well, this is just the way it has to be, because we're a small platform, and the email programs/ISP just don't know about us."  So, myself and my list mods are now forced to send unsubbed list members a manual email from our personal email accounts that states the following:

You were automatically unsubscribed by Groups.io from our <name of group> list on Groups.io because either you or your email program/ISP marked one of our list messages as spam.  Most likely, you emptied your Spam folder and didn't check the emails prior to emptying that folder. By doing that, you could have accidentally told your email program and/or ISP that our Groups.io emails are spam.  So, be SURE to check your Spam/Junk folder very carefully before just emptying it, for our list emails, and mark them as "NOT SPAM", please.  Sometimes it is nothing a list member does, but their ISP does.

The good news is, you were JUST send an auto re-subscription email from groups.io.  You have 7 days to click on the link in that email, to restore your membership.  Please be sure to look in your Spam folder, as well as your inbox for that email.  Click on the link in the email, and you will be instantly restored as a list member.


I am still not a fan of this method of managing Blacklisting/Whitelisting.  There is no other group I'm on, on any other platform (big or small) that uses this method to manage their Blacklisting issues.  For my groups, most of my list members are not particularly computer-savvy, so we lose members through this process.  Not all get themselves re-subscribed, some don't even see our message until after the link expiration, and then we have to spend time asking them to send in a new membership request.  I feel like this is an awful lot of uncessary work for list owners/mods.  Not the best system, and a strange one in my opinion.

Patty S.