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moderated Suggested Feature - Provide email "call" for a message by specifying the message number


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 01:37 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Because we have no stake in it. We have no "standing." Existence or nonexistence of features like these doesn't affect us one way or the other.
I disagree, but I'm also done.   Anyone using a system as it exists has standing when changes are being discussed, whether or not said changes are something they, personally, would use or not.

I don't see feature requests as something that cannot be questioned/challenged, and for reasons both practical and philosophical, on principle.  On more than one occasion when, "But you can already do this . . .{insert way here}," has been brought up the reply has been, "Oh, I didn't know that."  That's why these sorts of discussions have value, at least to me.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:37 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Existence or nonexistence of features like these doesn't affect us one way or the other.
(continuation)...doesn't affect us in terms of implementation and maintenance and work for Mark. Of course the people who actively want the feature have a stake in the debate. But people who don't want it have no reason to object since it doesn't affect them.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:25 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
For myself, being "a contrarian" is a role I don't mind taking.
Gosh, I had no idea! ;)

You are absolutely correct that, in the end, it is up to one person only:  Mark.
It's always up to Mark. But with these kinds of features, I would argue that we are wasting his time by even debating the matter here. Because we have no stake in it. We have no "standing." Existence or nonexistence of features like these doesn't affect us one way or the other.

I don't mind being a contrarian either. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 01:14 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does not make sense IMHO for people in beta to fight tooth and nail against a feature that neither they nor their group members never even have to be consciously aware of.
Nor I, and we've had this discussion.

For myself, being "a contrarian" is a role I don't mind taking.  Providing counterpoint isn't, in my opinion, arguing "tooth and nail" against anything.  Nor is repeating that educating one's own users about the mechanisms already available, sometimes not only on Groups.io but elsewhere as well, should be the first order of business rather than requesting "the next feature," that simply does the same thing in another way.

You are absolutely correct that, in the end, it is up to one person only:  Mark.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

Typo, should read implementation and maintenance 


On Mar 25, 2019, at 10:14 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Discretion is always required and  I am as familiar (if not more) with feature bloat as anyone here. But unless any given feature seriously detracts from general user experience (and I’ll grant that a few non-optional features that have been requested here in the past fall into that category), then what constitutes feature bloat in terms of implementation maintenance is entirely up to Mark to determine. It does not make sense IMHO for people in beta to fight tooth and nail against a feature that neither they nor their group members never even have to be consciously aware of.


On Mar 25, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:21 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
One more comment on the notion that's frequently propagated here to the effect that "there's already a way to do this, we don't need another one." I think if you call the alternate way a "short cut," in general it might get more respect.
Honestly, and I'm not arguing with regard to this request, but in general - this is often what becomes "feature bloat."   There are minuses, sometimes severe, to having to maintain N ways of doing things when, say, 2 are routinely used by the majority of users.  The possibility of the introduction of bugs, possible points of failure really shouldn't be ignored.

If an existing way is very easy, there's even less need for another one.

I'm not saying that any and every feature request be denied, either.  But given the water that's passed under the beta bridge, there have been plenty that deserve to have floated downstream without ever having been plucked out.  Discretion is required, particularly with regard to what falls more into the "need" rather than "want" categories.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Discretion is always required and  I am as familiar (if not more) with feature bloat as anyone here. But unless any given feature seriously detracts from general user experience (and I’ll grant that a few non-optional features that have been requested here in the past fall into that category), then what constitutes feature bloat in terms of implementation maintenance is entirely up to Mark to determine. It does not make sense IMHO for people in beta to fight tooth and nail against a feature that neither they nor their group members never even have to be consciously aware of.


On Mar 25, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:21 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
One more comment on the notion that's frequently propagated here to the effect that "there's already a way to do this, we don't need another one." I think if you call the alternate way a "short cut," in general it might get more respect.
Honestly, and I'm not arguing with regard to this request, but in general - this is often what becomes "feature bloat."   There are minuses, sometimes severe, to having to maintain N ways of doing things when, say, 2 are routinely used by the majority of users.  The possibility of the introduction of bugs, possible points of failure really shouldn't be ignored.

If an existing way is very easy, there's even less need for another one.

I'm not saying that any and every feature request be denied, either.  But given the water that's passed under the beta bridge, there have been plenty that deserve to have floated downstream without ever having been plucked out.  Discretion is required, particularly with regard to what falls more into the "need" rather than "want" categories.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:21 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
One more comment on the notion that's frequently propagated here to the effect that "there's already a way to do this, we don't need another one." I think if you call the alternate way a "short cut," in general it might get more respect.
Honestly, and I'm not arguing with regard to this request, but in general - this is often what becomes "feature bloat."   There are minuses, sometimes severe, to having to maintain N ways of doing things when, say, 2 are routinely used by the majority of users.  The possibility of the introduction of bugs, possible points of failure really shouldn't be ignored.

If an existing way is very easy, there's even less need for another one.

I'm not saying that any and every feature request be denied, either.  But given the water that's passed under the beta bridge, there have been plenty that deserve to have floated downstream without ever having been plucked out.  Discretion is required, particularly with regard to what falls more into the "need" rather than "want" categories.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

One more comment on the notion that's frequently propagated here to the effect that "there's already a way to do this, we don't need another one." I think if you call the alternate way a "short cut," in general it might get more respect. Nobody has anything against shortcuts to be used under certain situations and conditions where there's something simple and immediate the user wants. So why on earth not provide the shortcut if it's simple? Nobody has to use it or even be aware of it if they don't want to. There are tons of shortcuts available in all the software I use and I'm generally oblivious to them. But why should I fight against them?

That's besides the fact that there's at least one other use-case I mentioned for this feature, besides the one for which it was originally suggested, where someone may simply want a hard copy of a particular message in their inbox (for other reasons besides not being able or wanting to log on). They may want to forward it or whatever. And there may others.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bob Bellizzi
 

You obviously misread the request and  are reacting on an incorrect assumption
Go back and read from the beginning.  Catlady understood and so did Brian but not you
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


 

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 05:24 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I think this suggestion is a waste of time
What's so awful about helping people out? But forget helping people out. What if someone wants a copy of a message in their email so that they can forward it to someone else? In our group, that might be useful for people who want to forward a message to their veterinarian, for example. Our group members tend to be very internet savvy and people are using the website all the time. I don't think it would be coddling them to provide this feature. Not that I have anything against coddling in the first place. Call it good service, or good old user-friendliness.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Jim Higgins
 

Received from Bob Bellizzi at 3/24/2019 10:33 PM UTC:

Jim H, We already have a considerable amount of collateral literature, in a couple of languages. While this is helpful, it's never the entire answer.We also have experts' videos professionally edited from our symposiums.
"I bet you're thinking about preparing a template response containing directions and then paste the message number to be used with those directions into it."
WRONG, that's what the WIKI is for and we have a great one with short, informative, simple instructions.

And how do all those folks who are too unsavvy to take a message number and find the corresponding message via the web interface deal with a Wiki that can only be accessed via the web interface?


We do everything we can to help these people in their journey through their genetic disease even if it means we need to be nice to them <g>. You won't have much word of mouth or other good publicity by being a storm trooper. That just doesn't work in our world.

Bob Bellizzi

Yet another strawman. No one is suggesting being a storm trooper.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that "unsavvy" subscribers is getting worn out as a reason for fringe enhancement requests that involve contacting a mentor who can't be bothered to forward a copy of a message, but rather forwards only the message number and instructions on how to "call" that message by sending a very specifically formatted email.

I think this suggestion is a waste of time and that a perfectly good alternative is already available.

Jim H


Bob Bellizzi
 

Jim H,

We already have a considerable amount of collateral literature, in a couple of languages.  While this is helpful, it's never the entire answer.
We also have experts' videos professionally edited from our symposiums.

"I bet you're thinking about preparing a template response containing directions and then paste the message number to be used with those directions into it. "
WRONG, that's what the WIKI is for and we have a great one with short, informative, simple instructions.

We do everything we can to help these people in their journey through their genetic disease even if it means we need to be nice to them <g>. 
You won't have much word of mouth or other good publicity by being a storm trooper.
That just doesn't work in our world.

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 01:43 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
So Brian, it's sink or swim right off the bat you throw them into the deep end and if they don't get it, their tough luck?

We are focused on helping the patient regain their functions rather than teaching them how to use the internet.  It may be inefficient but it's effective and has been for almost 2 decades.
Great strawman, that's for sure.  Nothing I said, nothing, implies that people should not be patiently taught how to get to a group archive and search it.

And part of helping someone, regardless of the issue at hand, is teaching them to be independent in the tools that they're using or started using.  Accessing a group archive for individuals who have any given issue, and are interested in what others who have the same one have said (probably many times) over time, is an essential skill in the circumstances you describe.  Period.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 05:00 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Hey, that's how I ran my choirs. You either do things my way, or theres the door.
And I've been in choirs, and other organizations, that are run that way and they generally run more smoothly than those where everything has to suit everybody (which it never can and never will).

Every time someone "can't do something" that can be easily done, if they bother to learn how, the solution isn't to do it for them, but teach them how to do it themselves.  You've seen me use this technique, and in no uncertain terms, on several groups we both frequent and two of which I moderate.

I prefer to teach people how to be independent and how to do the things that any modern computer user should know how to do.  And that includes for clients of all ages and existing skill levels.  I do them no favors by pretending that spoon feeding is going to be the norm when issues arise.

Patiently explaining to those who don't know how to use features that already exist should be the first order of business.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


Jim Higgins
 

Received from Bob Bellizzi at 3/24/2019 08:45 PM UTC:

We do teach them but first you have to reduce the stress and angst levels by providing useful information about the subject that was the reason they came to you in the first place.

But the stress levels can be reduced faster by just emailing them the information instead of sending them a message number along with directions about how to send an email request in a very specific format in order to get that info.

I bet you're thinking about preparing a template response containing directions and then paste the message number to be used with those directions into it. Why not just prepare templates with information on the disease. As many as there are variants of the disease, and send them as needed? Cut out that middle part involving "calling" the message that does nothing to reduce stress and angst.

Jim H


Sarah k Alawami
 

Hey, that's how I ran my choirs. You either do things my way, or theres the door. By the way all of the students stayed and cried a lot when I had to leave due to some things that happened. But I didn't slow down for them either. I'm down with that.

Take care

On 24 Mar 2019, at 13:55, Bob Bellizzi wrote:

Sarah,
That would be a great way for a Charitable institution to operate.
"Hey you, it's my way or the highway! You have 3 days to learn how to use the system or we kick you out!"
We could even use some of that attitude on our donation thank you notes, or maybe imprint this on the envelopes
"hey, stupid, get with the program and give us more money"

Hopefully, Mark will lock this thread before it degenerates even further
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


Bob Bellizzi
 

Sarah,
That would be a great way for a Charitable institution to operate.
"Hey you, it's my way or the highway! You have 3 days to learn how to use the system or we kick you out!"
We could even use some of that attitude on our donation thank you notes, or maybe imprint this on the envelopes
"hey, stupid, get with the program and give us more money"

Hopefully, Mark will lock this thread before it degenerates even further
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


Sarah k Alawami
 

I do believe in the sync or swim idea myself. As my prof of a class said to us, you either say with me or get left behind, and I'm not slowing down for you.

On 24 Mar 2019, at 10:43, Bob Bellizzi wrote:

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 09:24 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Most of the groups I am on here are not frequented by tech geeks and virtually all of them, save this one and the Group Managers Forum, are used by individuals of all ages who are blind or visually impaired.   All of them are "sophisticated enough" to know how to click through on a link to read something and, if they are not, they need to become so.
So Brian, it's sink or swim right off the bat you throw them into the deep end and if they don't get it, their tough luck?

We are focused on helping the patient regain their functions rather than teaching them how to use the internet.  It may be inefficient but it's effective and has been for almost 2 decades.
 
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


Bob Bellizzi
 

We do teach them but first you have to reduce the stress and angst levels by providing useful information about the subject that was the reason they came to you in the first place.

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


KWKloeber
 

<<I don't get the idea of re-sending a message, in its entirety, by e-mail at all.>>
 
Whether it's in its entirety or automatically emailing a link to a msg, it would be a valuable option AND one that many forums already offer (e.g., simplemachines.)  Hey how about inserting both in the email?
<<<We do members no favors by encouraging any kind of "digital illiteracy," and there are very, very few people today who don't know how to use a web browser
If it does, then teach.>>>
 
You probably haven't been in the seat of teaching your parents (yes, it was "a few" yrs ago) to use a browser or email client, no less to highlight, right-click, copy, paste, etc.  Let me revise that, TRY to teach, 50% unsuccessfully/50% successfully so long as there wasn't more than 2 days between uses.   
That's sitting next to them, not long distance instructions. 
 
There's just some old dogs who cannot or don't want to learn new tricks.  What's wrong with accommodating them to the extent practical?  The savvy users aren't forced to use any option.
 

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