Topics

moderated make rejected-subscription notice semi-manual instead of automatic


 

Mark,

Trigger warning: this is one of those "strong requests.":-)

There is currently a Member Notice type of "Rejected subscription." Our group has created a handful of these, to fit various situations - e.g. the cat has no diagnosis, they did not complete the required questionnaire, the cat has a disease that is off-topic for this group, etc. In fact I think we have about 8, currently.

The problem is that unlike when rejecting a message, where you can pick a rejection notice (if desired) at the time of rejection, with rejected subscription you can't select which one you want to use at the time of the rejection. Instead, the notice you've designated as the "active" one goes out. That means that EVERY TIME you want to reject a member with or without a message, you have to go into Member Notices and redo the "active" status, either by removing the "active" from the current active notice (if you want no notification to go out), or by finding and checking "active" on the one you do want to go out, or at minimum, if your group has more than one such notice, going in to check that the "right one" is currently set to "active."

This is a ginormous PITA. For several years I've handled it on my own, not having active co-moderators to help with the member approval process. But now, to make matters worse, I am faced with communicating this mess and how to deal with it to my new co-moderators (I'm not even sure whether there's a specific permission they need to go in and change Member Notices, but I'm not going there now).

Can this please be fixed, once and for all? I did make the request a few years ago when we were dealing with the Member Notices documentation. It's another area that could use some cleaning up overall - namely, which actions trigger automatic notices vs. which allow real-time selection of a notice. But I'd be happy if we could just fix this one for now.

Specifically, the request is that rejected subscriptions be handled in the same way as rejected messages, namely: allow selection of a particular rejection notice (or other hand-typed message) at the time of rejection, rather than have an "active" notice set and needing change (or at least checking) every time a subscription is rejected.

Thanks!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

p.s. Thinking about the overall Member Notices situation and which ones should be automatic, I think the only automatic ones should be ones that are persistent, i.e., that don't change with each action - e.g., the Welcome Message would normally not need change with each new member. You would have to go through and think about which others make sense as automatic vs which ones don't, but I think that's the right criterion. Right now I'm just dealing with this one specific issue.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 8:50 AM J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mark,

Trigger warning: this is one of those "strong requests.":-)

There is currently a Member Notice type of "Rejected subscription." Our group has created a handful of these, to fit various situations - e.g. the cat has no diagnosis, they did not complete the required questionnaire, the cat has a disease that is off-topic for this group, etc. In fact I think we have about 8, currently.

The problem is that unlike when rejecting a message, where you can pick a rejection notice (if desired) at the time of rejection, with rejected subscription you can't select which one you want to use at the time of the rejection. Instead, the notice you've designated as the "active" one goes out. That means that EVERY TIME you want to reject a member with or without a message, you have to go into Member Notices and redo the "active" status, either by removing the "active" from the current active notice (if you want no notification to go out), or by finding and checking "active" on the one you do want to go out, or at minimum, if your group has more than one such notice, going in to check that the "right one" is currently set to "active."

This is a ginormous PITA. For several years I've handled it on my own, not having active co-moderators to help with the member approval process. But now, to make matters worse, I am faced with communicating this mess and how to deal with it to my new co-moderators (I'm not even sure whether there's a specific permission they need to go in and change Member Notices, but I'm not going there now).

Can this please be fixed, once and for all? I did make the request a few years ago when we were dealing with the Member Notices documentation. It's another area that could use some cleaning up overall - namely, which actions trigger automatic notices vs. which allow real-time selection of a notice. But I'd be happy if we could just fix this one for now.

Specifically, the request is that rejected subscriptions be handled in the same way as rejected messages, namely: allow selection of a particular rejection notice (or other hand-typed message) at the time of rejection, rather than have an "active" notice set and needing change (or at least checking) every time a subscription is rejected.

Thanks!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Bruce Bowman
 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:50 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Specifically, the request is that rejected subscriptions be handled in the same way as rejected messages, namely: allow selection of a particular rejection notice (or other hand-typed message) at the time of rejection, rather than have an "active" notice set and needing change (or at least checking) every time a subscription is rejected.
The logic behind this is irrefutable, I'm just not quite clear on the proposed implementation yet.

If I understand correctly, this would involve doing away with the Rejected Subscription member notice altogether, rolling any existing ones into a pick-list like the one used for message moderation, and making whatever one happens to be Active a default. Are we still on the same page?

I assume this would appear on a custom screen for member review only. Which among the other features present during message moderation would you also have show up? Would we want a list of people in Pending status so you can go through them one by one? How about an option to display +owner messages so you can view responses to the Pending Subscription notice?

How could this be implemented without creating confusion among the majority of groups that only need one rejection message? 

Regards,
Bruce


 

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:12 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
f I understand correctly, this would involve doing away with the Rejected Subscription member notice altogether, rolling any existing ones into a pick-list like the one used for message moderation, and making whatever one happens to be Active a default. Are we still on the same page?
Not quite on same page, but close. :) You wouldn't have to eliminate any Rejected Subscription member notice. (BTW you say "the" notice, when there may be more than one). You keep them all, just like you can have multiple Rejected Message notices to choose from.

I'm just not quite clear on the proposed implementation yet. 
I think it would be a triviality. There's already a confimation dialog box. There is also a confirmation dialog box for rejected messages, but that one, besides yes or no, contains a composition box for a message (from which you can instead pick an existing notice of that type from a dropdown). Just add the composition box for the confirmation of a rejected subscription. It would look exactly like the one for Rejected Message, except for one word ("reject this one subscription?" instead of "reject this one message?"). The log entry, like the log entry for rejected messages, would include the message sent. Simple.

Off the top of my head, the only automatic messages should be the welcome and pending member notifications. The rest should allow real-time choice of which message (if any).

Another aspect to this is use of the "Active" designation for notifications of the type you can choose at the time (such as, currently, Rejected Message). It seems at first glance to be fairly meaningless for non-automatic type notifications, because you in effect select the "active" one at the time of doing the action. It does provide some incremental convenience by plopping the active notice into the composition box, but I think that's at the expense of clarity. I would do away with the "Active" designation for all but the automatic notices (of which, if my suggestion is implemented, Rejected Subscription would no longer be one).

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

The only four types that should be automatic IMO (and therefore have an Active designation available) are Welcome, Pending subscription, Group guidelines, and Good-bye. These are the four that the mod has no control over.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

(Well, the Welcome message could be chosen at the time of subscription approval for restricted groups, but I think that would be overkill.:)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would do away with the "Active" designation for all but the automatic notices
Sorry for the stream of consciousness - I'm thinking in spurts. Instead of doing away with the designation, the word "Active" could (and, I think, SHOULD) be replaced with the word "Default" for the non-automatic type notices. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Marina
 

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 06:35 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
There is also a confirmation dialog box for rejected messages, but that one,
besides yes or no, contains a composition box for a message (from which you
can instead pick an existing notice of that type from a dropdown). Just add
the composition box for the confirmation of a rejected subscription.
I support Catlady's request. Just yesterday I rejected a member's subcription request, I thought I would be given the opportunity to explain in a dialog box why I was rejecting him, but the rejection just went through. So I had to fish that prospective member's account and explain my reasons in a private message.
I am not particularly keen on having several Members' Notices (though I can understand that in some groups these may help), a simple dialog box would do in our case.

Best,
Marina


 

There will have to be a couple of differences between the way rejected subscriptions and rejected messages are handled, one of them somewhat major, one of them minor.

The big one (which hit me in the middle of the night) is that if you implement my suggestion to add a composition box for the (always optional) message for a rejected subscription a la rejected message, you would need to explicitly add a "yes" or "no" (at some point in the process - not sure where the best place would be for this) to "Send a rejection message?" That's because rejecting a message *requires* a notice to the member, even if it's just "Your message was not approved" (with no message added for the reason); whereas with a rejected subscription, groups currently have the option to send no notice at all. Currently, the options are to (a) send the "active" notice every time or (b) send no notice at all. You would need to retain (b). So the code would not be completely parallel to rejected messages, because another yes-no would need to be added. But still not a big deal. Just not sure where the question should go. (And, of course, you could have a "your subscription was not approved" notice go out with no added message, simply by not filling in the message box.)

The minor differences may involve logging, since the rejected pending member is not a member of the group. I'm not sure how this is handled, since I've actually seen an original rejection logged under an email address after the email address is later approved. So my guess is that if the email address has a confirmed account at the time they're rejected, the action still gets logged under their email address somehow. Of course, the rejection action would still be logged under the group and moderator activity, with the text of the notification message included in the log, as with rejected messages.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

I'm thinking in spurts again: Although it's true that rejected messages require a notification. "deleted" pending messages don't. A pending message can be rejected with no notification to the user by using "Delete" instead of "Reject." So you could do the same thing with pending subscriptions: add a "Delete" button, which just removes the pending subscription with no notice. That would do away with having to require another "yes-no" confirmation. The processing would be (nearly) completely parallel to pending messages.


On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 6:57 AM J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
There will have to be a couple of differences between the way rejected subscriptions and rejected messages are handled, one of them somewhat major, one of them minor.

The big one (which hit me in the middle of the night) is that if you implement my suggestion to add a composition box for the (always optional) message for a rejected subscription a la rejected message, you would need to explicitly add a "yes" or "no" (at some point in the process - not sure where the best place would be for this) to "Send a rejection message?" That's because rejecting a message *requires* a notice to the member, even if it's just "Your message was not approved" (with no message added for the reason); whereas with a rejected subscription, groups currently have the option to send no notice at all. Currently, the options are to (a) send the "active" notice every time or (b) send no notice at all. You would need to retain (b). So the code would not be completely parallel to rejected messages, because another yes-no would need to be added. But still not a big deal. Just not sure where the question should go. (And, of course, you could have a "your subscription was not approved" notice go out with no added message, simply by not filling in the message box.)

The minor differences may involve logging, since the rejected pending member is not a member of the group. I'm not sure how this is handled, since I've actually seen an original rejection logged under an email address after the email address is later approved. So my guess is that if the email address has a confirmed account at the time they're rejected, the action still gets logged under their email address somehow. Of course, the rejection action would still be logged under the group and moderator activity, with the text of the notification message included in the log, as with rejected messages.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 04:07 AM, Marina wrote:
I am not particularly keen on having several Members' Notices (though I can understand that in some groups these may help), a simple dialog box would do in our case.
Implementing my suggestion would in no way require you to have many, or even a single, canned notice. Just as with rejected messages, the composition box would offer a dropdown of any existing canned notices of type "rejected subscription" only if you've created any. Whether or not you haven't created any, you still just type in your message.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu