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moderated Give unsubscribing members ‘special notice’ option if no-email is disabled #suggestion


 

Members unsubscribing from our group due to “too many emails” seem not to be given other subscription options. It seems that in groups where no-email is not disabled, they are presented with an option to stay in the group but go to no-email. If no-email is disabled, I think they should be presented with staying in the group with special notice.


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J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 03:10 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Members unsubscribing from our group due to “too many emails” seem not to be given other subscription options.
All my members have all the available options included.  You could also include information in your 'Goodbye' notice to point them to the Advanced Preferences for their account.  If they're mainly email users, include the list of commands available via email or how to use the groupname+help address.

Duane


Leeni
 

That is what happens. They do have the choice to go special notice when no mail is disabled.
I have no mail disabled in my groups but they can go Special Notice if they want to.
This way they can get Owner Notices where on No Mail they won't.  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 2/20/2019 3:10:21 PM
Subject: [beta] Give unsubscribing members ‘special notice’ option if no-email is disabled #suggestion
 
Members unsubscribing from our group due to “too many emails” seem not to be given other subscription options. It seems that in groups where no-email is not disabled, they are presented with an option to stay in the group but go to no-email. If no-email is disabled, I think they should be presented with staying in the group with special notice.
 
 
--
J
 
Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu
 
 


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I also think it's a crying shame that a very great many Groups.io members have no idea how exquisite the level of control over e-mail volume can be if one knows how to do it.  This has been an issue on multiple occasions in several of the groups on which I participate, so I have put the following document together to educate our members:

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io

That document is aimed at blind or visually impaired members who use a screen reader, but can be easily adapted back to "sighted methods and terminology." There is really no reason to get "too many e-mails" even on wildly busy lists provided most of the traffic is not new topics.  Using the "Following Only" coupled with its associated "First Message Also" control knocks the number of e-mail messages coming through way down and allows you to choose whether you wish any additional ones for a given topic to come through.  If one changes one's mind at some point for a topic one was following you can either unfollow or mute it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 02:23 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I have put the following document together to educate our members:
Brian, I haven't read the doc you posted but I've also put up a doc with (what I assume is) the same info as the top sticky in our group. Thanks.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 01:47 PM, Duane wrote:
You could also include information in your 'Goodbye' notice
Yes I could, but it would be nice if this were automatic, as it is in the case of non-no-email-disabled groups, and if it were done before they are actually removed and need to be reinstated. Including this info in the goodbye notice doesn't really help, because by then it's too late. They've left. 

All my members have all the available options included.
Does your group have no-email disabled? Are you saying my group members (one of whom just reported today that she left due to "too many emails" and was not presented with other delivery options) are receiving the options as well, but are saying that they're not?

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 05:34 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
but I've also put up a doc with (what I assume is) the same info as the top sticky in our group
As a non-owner, I am not sure exactly how you might do it, but it might be a very good idea to send this information directly to anyone who's trying to unsubscribe secondary to "too many e-mails" and ask them to confirm whether they still wish to do so after having read and considered the alternatives.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Before I ask this, I wish to emphasize it is not intended to ignite a firestorm, but because I'm genuinely curious:

1.  Why would one wish to disable the no e-mail option?

2.  What does it gain a group to do so?

I'm "no e-mail" virtually everywhere, except on a couple of very, very low volume groups where virtually any post is a "special notice" in my world.  I can't imagine there aren't a lot of folks who might join a group who will not do so if they must use the e-mail interface rather than being able to choose the web interface.

I know if I were forced to be e-mail only that would be a deal breaker for me because I don't want any e-mail traffic from my routine participation on Groups.io.  I can do it all via a web forums interface, which has been my preference for "this sort of thing" for decades now.
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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 02:47 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
it might be a very good idea to send this information directly to anyone who's trying to unsubscribe secondary to "too many e-mails"
The key here is "trying to subscribe." This is exactly what I'm asking that the system do - just as it does in the case of a non-no-email-disabled group. Otherwise, it's locking the barn door after the horse as left. Subscribers in non-no-email-disabled groups have their unsubscribe process halted in the mid-stream by the system and are presented with staying in the group with other delivery options. But as I explained to Duane, once they've left the group. they're gone. And it's only rarely (and because our good-bye notice does ask why they left) that we even find out they left due to too many emails. Some answer the good-bye notice, some don't. In this one particular case, the member DID answer. AND because she was such a valuable group member, I emailed her in response to her good-bye response to (a) ask whether she'd been presented with the other options after clicking on unsubscribe (she hadn't, which is the origin of my suggestion here) and (b) whether she'd like me to reinstate her etc.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 02:52 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
1.  Why would one wish to disable the no e-mail option?

2.  What does it gain a group to do so
Good thing the firestorm is already over lol. It was a major conflagration. All the groups I'm in besides this one have no-email enabled. It makes sure I can reach all group members when absolutely necessary to convey some crucial information. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 02:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The key here is "trying to subscribe." T
typo, "trying to unsubscribe"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 05:55 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It makes sure I can reach all group members when absolutely necessary to convey some crucial information. 
OK, but I still don't understand.  (And that could be my not getting something).  My understanding is that it is not possible for members of a group to block special notices by e-mail under any circumstances, even if they're "no e-mail."   Am I mistaken?

If that is the case, and it should be a separate topic, should it be?   Anywhere else I've ever been a member of where "special notices" were a feature they were not blockable under any circumstances.  That was their entire purpose for being.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

Yes it needs to be a separate topic. But I assure you that it won’t be rehashed again to any effect. It was one of those mega-battles. (Perhaps you were involved in it? I don’t remember.) Thread should be easy to find.


On Feb 20, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 05:55 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It makes sure I can reach all group members when absolutely necessary to convey some crucial information. 
OK, but I still don't understand.  (And that could be my not getting something).  My understanding is that it is not possible for members of a group to block special notices by e-mail under any circumstances, even if they're "no e-mail."   Am I mistaken?

If that is the case, and it should be a separate topic, should it be?   Anywhere else I've ever been a member of where "special notices" were a feature they were not blockable under any circumstances.  That was their entire purpose for being.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 03:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
My understanding is that it is not possible for members of a group to block special notices by e-mail under any circumstances, even if they're "no e-mail."   Am I mistaken?
Brian - Yes, re-reading this I do see that there IS a misunderstanding here. If a member is no-email, then they don't even receive special notices. Disabling the no-email option makes it so that they do receive at least special notices.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

Brian Vogel writes:
"OK, but I still don't understand. My understanding is that it is not possible for members of a group to block special notices by e-mail under any circumstances, even if they're "no e-mail." Am I mistaken?"

It appears you may be mistaken, Brian. "No email" means exactly that; no Special Notices or any other messages.

That's why the option to have Special Notices only. We had groups moving and making other changes and realized that a number of members were being lost or otherwise missing important information because there was no way to contact them as they were set to 'No email'.

Dano


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Well, based on what has been stated here, which I have no reason to doubt, the idea that an end-user's choice of no-email should block administrative notices is in desperate need of revisiting.

I can see the very rare desire to receive nothing except special notices.  I can never see a justification for a member (and I mean any member - owner, moderator, or regular) to be able to block special notices.

I also fully expect that group owners and moderators know better than to abuse the special notice feature.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 03:34 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
the idea that an end-user's choice of no-email should block administrative notices
It does. No revisiting required. I misread your message. Can we get back to the original topic now? :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 06:37 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does. No revisiting required.
What requires revisiting is whether it should.  I don't need any further convincing that it does.  I have never been persuaded by the argument, "because we've always done it that way," and particularly once it becomes apparent that the law of unintended consequences is hugely at play.  It is, and shall remain, my opinion that a no email choice should not apply to special notices.

I will now happily return you to your previous topic and offer no more on this side loop.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


 

Brian, there are too many double negatives here. Bottom line, now that I understand your preference I totally agree with you. Special notices should always get through. The fact that no-email subscriptions block them is the reason that I and others fought so hard for an option to disable no-email. We are totally on the same page, except that I personally don’t care that no-email blocks special notices nod that there’s a feature to get past that.


On Feb 20, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 06:37 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does. No revisiting required.
What requires revisiting is whether it should.  I don't need any further convincing that it does.  I have never been persuaded by the argument, "because we've always done it that way," and particularly once it becomes apparent that the law of unintended consequences is hugely at play.  It is, and shall remain, my opinion that a no email choice should not apply to special notices.

I will now happily return you to your previous topic and offer no more on this side loop.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Duane
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 04:37 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
All my members have all the available options included.
Does your group have no-email disabled?
Yes, it's disabled on 3 of my groups, but the users can still choose any of the others.

Duane