moderated Add permalinks to Wiki pages


 

Ken,

It’s great because even externally posted, say an oldpagename
circulated in a prior email, remains valid - no perma links needed,
That effectively makes each title a permalink. Which is an acceptable solution.

It has the downside that an exact title text can never be reused, as it is permanently linked to the original content. Or rather, reusing it means replacing the original content, not creating a new page with that title.

Everything can stay “common” names, no weird url types
I'm not sure what you mean by weird URL types, but if you're referring to the disallowed characters I proposed for the Page Address (2) then Wikipedia must be doing something about them.

For example you'll notice that titles don't translate exactly to their links. A space, for example, generally becomes an underscore.

There may be other rules applied for other characters. For example, if I wanted the title to be "this/that" or "Big_Bad" what happens to the punctuation character? One possibility is that there are disallowed characters in the Title text, which is what I proposed for Addresses.

eg, http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34
A parameter value (the text after "title=") may have different syntactic rules than the leaf form generally used by Wikipedia
e.g. http://c34.org/wiki/Catalina_34
but still there will be restricted characters to deal with, either by disallowing them or by escaping them. I prefer to disallow them because the escaped forms are generally very ugly - not suitable for human eyes.

Shal


KWKloeber
 

Shal

In mediawiki (eg, Wikipedia’s and the most widely used and supported wiki platform) 
you don’t actually edit or delete a pagename  — You “move” it to a new name. 

eg, instead of how we live edit a topicname on a forum, we’d ‘move’ it to a new topicname. 

All links on other pages that linked to that original (moved) pagename is preserved and I’ll call it redirected to the “moved” page. 

It’s great because even externally posted, say an oldpagename circulated in a prior email, remains valid - no perma links needed, and the clicker ends up at newpagename. 

Everything can stay “common” names, no weird url types and the preservation/redirection is seamless - the renaming of the links is internally automatic.

I think how I’d split a page is make a copy, edit each as desired and “move” each to whatever new names is desired. 
At least I THINK that would be the way - I’d have to play with MW to confirm.  

As far as I know the only pagename condition to be aware of, is that the 1st letter will get capitalized.  So, s/v MyBoatname  
becomes S/v MyBoatname.  
Just a little quirky. 

TMI, but thought I’d explain how MW does things. 


 

Ken,

Alternately, could page splitting, renaming, etc be handled as
mediawiki does? Can’t recall the proper term but links are preserved
(redirected?) Or would that be too involved in the coding?
I'm not that familiar with mediawiki (as an author), but that sounds like what Mark was suggesting (#3). I don't know how that works in the UI, but I'm content to leave that in his capable hands.

In an implementation with page numbers (my #1) how to handle a split would be up to the page author. He/she could create one new page for the "extra" information and link to the new page from the old one. Or make two new pages and edit the original down to just providing references (links) to the two replacements.

Shal


KWKloeber
 

Right on the nail head re: relying on complicated naming rules. It’s difficult enough to encourage “common sense” page names. 

From experience, relying on “proper” naming becomes a nightmare.  Eventually the timid just don’t post or the structure becomes a near apocalypse. 

Alternately, could page splitting, renaming, etc be handled as mediawiki does?  Can’t recall the proper term but links are preserved (redirected?)  Or would that be too involved in the coding?
One can choose to implement  the forwarding or not.  

Ken

Sent from my phone


 

Mark,

I wrote:
...
Maybe instead of a serial number for the permalink, allow the page creator to assign a Page Name (which becomes its permalink) with a short text, required to be group-unique; explicitly distinct from the page Title.

Rather than Page Name, we can just be fully explicit about it, as is done for the Group Name, and call it the Page Address:



This makes it quite clear what happens if you change it, so like a group name it wouldn't have to actually be permanent. Changing it will have understandable consequences.

In any list where one can select a page it would be best to show both the Address and the Title, in the same way that the entries in the Publicly Listed Groups show both the Address and Title on the first line of the entry.

I'm not sure what the actual list of excluded characters should be, but I'd want to avoid things that must be encoded when displayed in a browser address bar.

One way to handle backward compatibility with existing pages would be to continue treat Titles as addresses also, an alias for the same page. When creating or editing a page one would not be allowed to use an existing Address or Title in either field. The only downside I can think of is that it carries the title-based addresses into the future indefinitely.

Another approach might be to give each existing page a serialized initial Address, with the title-based URL as an alias for that existing pages only. This would avoid breaking links while also not creating new aliases (title-based URLs).

...

So I guess those are two versions of my wiki permalink suggestion:

1) Treat wiki pages more like messages and assign each a serialized page number as its permalink address.

or

2) Treat wiki pages more like group names and allow the user to assign each a semi-permanent Address that is distinct from its human-friendly Title.

...

I'm not ignoring Mark's (3) "Treat the Title with more ceremony, like Wikipedia" version. It just doesn't seem as "natural" to me as making the Wiki pages more like something else that Groups.io already does.

I like the mnemonic value of (2), with the primary downside that it creates a little extra friction that might cause some timid users to shy from creating a wiki page ("I have to think up a good Address too?"). Plus it is another field to explain and have group rules about.

On the whole I think I prefer the simplicity of (1), even though it has the downside that everywhere you pass a link to the page the URL itself won't say what the page is about, you'll have to do that in text.

Shal


 

Mark,

Currently there is a link icon on wiki pages, which points to the URL for the wiki page (with the wiki title).

Yes, that one I want immutable.
It seems that there'd be confusion with two different kinds of permalinks. 

I wouldn't have an icon for both types. I was thinking that going forward the title links one would only get via copying the address bar while visiting the wiki page. In any case I don't want to break any existing title links.

Maybe I need to do what Wikipedia does: changing the title of a page is a bit more of a process and generates redirect URLs from the old title to the new title.

That's an idea too. But a part of my annoyance with the title links is that many users don't think of the title in terms of it being used for access. So they make long ones, with punctuation and whatnot. In addition to changing them without thinking.

Maybe instead of a serial number for the permalink, allow the page creator to assign a Page Name (which becomes its permalink) with a short text, required to be group-unique; explicitly distinct from the page Title. I try to treat them that way anyway. That text could have URL-compatible character rules so that you don't subsequently have to deal with encoding them (and we don't have to deal with the ugliness of URL-encoded punctuation in the URL). A little like the distinction between a Group Name (aka email address) and a Group Title.

Shal


 

Shal,

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 1:12 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

I'd like to have permalinks on wiki pages.

Currently there is a link icon on wiki pages, which points to the URL for the wiki page (with the wiki title). It seems that there'd be confusion with two different kinds of permalinks. 

Maybe I need to do what Wikipedia does: changing the title of a page is a bit more of a process and generates redirect URLs from the old title to the new title.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

I'd like to have permalinks on wiki pages.

Reason: An issue has come up in GMF where we split a page into two pages for better organization, and the complaint was made that the action broke the link for the original page (the title changed).

Exactly like message numbers, these can be a serial number issued at page creation and never re-used. Like a message number it can be shown on the right, near the edit date and revision(s) link. It can use exactly the same format (number and icon) for familiarity.

As with message numbers I'd prefer them to be group-unique to keep them short, rather than site unique like Topic numbers, but that's not an important feature compared to having them at all.

That would give us something like:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/12345

rather than
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/long-hyphenated-encoded-copy-of-the-wiki-page-title

If desirable to prevent potential namespace conflict, change "wiki" in the URL to "wikilink" or something so that wiki permalinks are syntactically distinct from wiki title links.

Oh yes, and I'll throw a bump on my earlier request for permalink icons on all user-supplied content items:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/8662

Shal