moderated Language


Sharon Villines
 

Late comments on Terms of Service:

• There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations. This will not be tolerated and can lead to immediate suspension.
Immediate suspension "of the group by Groups.io.” The message, the group, the member?

Shorter and parallel construction:

Racial, ethnic, gender based insults, or any other personal discriminations will not be tolerated and can lead to ...

• Spamming is not permitted
Longer but defines spamming:

Spamming, indiscriminately sending copies of the same message to a large number of people. is not permitted.

• This forum has the right to request alteration or deletion of any offensive post. If this is not done in a prompt manner, the Staff will delete the material themselves.
The switch from “groups” to “forum” is confusing. While forum has a general meaning, online it refers to a site people visit to ask questions and make comments. While Groups.io can be used like a forum it is much more than that and can also be misleading.

Adding “promptly" raises the issue of you didn’t do it promptly so you can’t do it a year later. It also suggests that you are constantly monitoring messages.

Shorter:

Groups.io has the right to request the alteration or deletion of any offensive message.

• Posts may be deleted for any reasons the forum administrators deem reasonable.
Again language switch to Forum, posts, and administrators. Administrators has a general meaning but here it would be better to use the specific titles used by Groups.io — The group owner and/or moderator. The “group." And “messages" Use the words people would search in the help files or the homepage of the group. Some would look a long time for “posts.”

All these language issues are particularly important for those whose first language is not English. The dyslexic. And those with poor vision.

• Linking to hate, anti-Semitic, racist, pornography, warez, or other illegal sites is not permitted.
I would say “Links to”. It’s parallel construction with other items in the list.

• Members may have only one account on this forum. There is no need to have more than one.
Why? Aliases are not generally understood. I have people on my groups with 3-4 accounts. They want to be able to send from their various offices but only receive at one address. I shudder at having to explain aliases to them.

• Any impersonation of a user from these forums, in any mode of communication, is strictly prohibited and will result in a banning.
Again, parallel construction and specific language:

• Impersonation of another Groups.io member, in any form of communication, is prohibited and will result in a banishment of the member from Groups.io.

I find that adjectives like “strictly," “forbidden," etc, actually weaken the statement. They are often distracting and sound like threats instead of statements of fact. Do you want all members to feel threatened when they read these? Only a small percentage would do any of these things. Others are looking to see what kind of organization Groups.io is. Is it respectable? Does my group fit?

One of the things I’ve found is that routinely posting list of rules kills conversation for days. It makes people too anxious about breaking the rules. Much better to explain the parameters of the list when the need arises. Then people are more likely to read the reasons for it, not just try to memorize it or feel reprimanded.

As you see I have experience editing policies, contracts, instructions, syllabuses, etc.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
TakomaDC@Groups.io
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I just lifted these particular bits verbatim.  I actually prefer the updates you've proposed for the most part.

I'm more interested in the concepts embodied to be adopted in some form, if the consensus is that they should be, than in any retention of the wording.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:55 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
Immediate suspension "of the group by Groups.io.” The message, the group, the member?
Of the member.  All rules I cited, except those clearly of an "overarching the site" nature, are applicable to the member doing thing X or Y.

Of course, if an entire group suddenly went south with its whole membership violating that rule I would simply presume that it could be suspended/deleted.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Sharon Villines wrote:
There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations.
Unfortunately I don't have time to proof-read the whole thing, but the sentence above stands out for its lack of the word "or" before "gender based." It's an actual grammatical error.

There would also preferably be a comma after "insults," but that lack is a matter of preference rather than correctness. The term "personal discriminations" also seems a bit odd. But those two are minor compared to the grammatical error.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Sharon Villines
 

Re: Language
From: J_Catlady
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 20:28:11 EDT

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Sharon Villines wrote:

There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations.
Unfortunately I don't have time to proof-read the whole thing, but the sentence above stands out for its lack of the word "or" before "gender based." It's an actual grammatical error.

There would also preferably be a comma after "insults," but that lack is a matter of preference rather than correctness. The term "personal discriminations" also seems a bit odd. But those two are minor compared to the grammatical error.
And unfortunately, I didn’t write that sentence. I suggested:

Racial, ethnic, gender based insults, or any other personal discriminations will not be tolerated and can lead to …
Gender based should have a en dash.

Sharon


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:55 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
Spamming, indiscriminately sending copies of the same message to a large number of people. is not permitted.
As an aside, this is a really restrictive definition of spamming.   People posting a single message, utterly unrelated to the group or ongoing topic, that is of a promotional nature or meant to drive traffic to a given website is spamming.

In a group related to, say, apple growing in northern climes, someone chiming in with a single post regarding testosterone boosting miracle herbs is spamming.

Most people recognize spam when they see it.  I don't think it needs to be closely defined, as it cannot be.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


 

The same error is in the suggested change. Needs ‘or’ before ‘gender based’

On Oct 10, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Sharon Villines via Groups.Io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:

Re: Language
From: J_Catlady
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 20:28:11 EDT

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Sharon Villines wrote:

There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations.
Unfortunately I don't have time to proof-read the whole thing, but the sentence above stands out for its lack of the word "or" before "gender based." It's an actual grammatical error.

There would also preferably be a comma after "insults," but that lack is a matter of preference rather than correctness. The term "personal discriminations" also seems a bit odd. But those two are minor compared to the grammatical error.
And unfortunately, I didn’t write that sentence. I suggested:

Racial, ethnic, gender based insults, or any other personal discriminations will not be tolerated and can lead to …
Gender based should have a en dash.

Sharon

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Jim Higgins
 

Received from Brian Vogel at 10/11/2018 03:06 AM UTC:

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:55 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
Spamming, indiscriminately sending copies of the same message to a large number of people. is not permitted.
As an aside, this is a really restrictive definition of spamming.  People posting a single message, utterly unrelated to the group or ongoing topic, that is of a promotional nature or meant to drive traffic to a given website is spamming.

Worse than that. That definition didn't mention anything about on or off topic. And it's the nature of groups to send messages "to a large number of people." And "indiscriminately" is waaaaay too vague. Scrap the whole thing.

Jim H


 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
personal discriminations
and I still find that term odd.

Gender based should have a en dash.
It's a style issue. They're going out of style, and I would not use unless meaning is unclear. I'm fine without it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Scrap the whole thing.
and go back to:   Spamming is strictly prohibited and will lead to an immediate and permanent ban on posting privileges.

If one wishes to remove "strictly," fine.  I just think it's important that it be made crystal clear that spamming, any kind of spamming, is a swiftly and irrevocably punishable offense.  It's not a suspension, or being put on moderated status, but a "You're OUT!," offense.

Those who come to spam come for no other reason.

An odd off-topic message or off-topic topic "among friends" isn't spam, though both seem to really annoy the more anal retentive in any group.  For myself, unless the behavior is constant on the part of a specific member, I think that in all groups each of us occasionally wants to ask "folks we know" in cyberspace about something that's not strictly on topic for a group and that's fine if not abused.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 08:49 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
and go back to:   Spamming is strictly prohibited and will lead to an immediate and permanent ban on posting privileges.
I would say "will lead to removal of your account." I had a disgruntled banned member who saved all her emails from the group from years ago and sent multi-page screeds to all of them disparaging the group. Now THAT's spamming. :) Her account was removed altogether. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I really don't think the exact mechanism of banishment is relevant.

I agree that some people will probably have their accounts deleted.  That is the ultimate "permanent ban on posting privileges" provided you don't have one of those people who repeatedly tries to sneak back in under a different guise (and generally has a tell that's so instantly recognizable that it's laughable that they'd try).

I chose that wording simply because that's exactly how we do it "on that other site."  The only time an account is actually deleted is if a member requests it, and even then removal of an account does not strike any of the content that they posted while they had an account.

We actually purge all spam messages, and if you had a robo-spammer or tag team that can take some effort!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


 

Yeah our spammer did sneak back in but hasn’t posted (I increased NuM to 4 and moderate potential troublemakers at the drop of a hat). It was just a little anecdote, ancient history now thanks to Mark. :)


On Oct 10, 2018, at 8:59 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

I really don't think the exact mechanism of banishment is relevant.

I agree that some people will probably have their accounts deleted.  That is the ultimate "permanent ban on posting privileges" provided you don't have one of those people who repeatedly tries to sneak back in under a different guise (and generally has a tell that's so instantly recognizable that it's laughable that they'd try).

I chose that wording simply because that's exactly how we do it "on that other site."  The only time an account is actually deleted is if a member requests it, and even then removal of an account does not strike any of the content that they posted while they had an account.

We actually purge all spam messages, and if you had a robo-spammer or tag team that can take some effort!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I had a disgruntled banned member who saved all her emails from the group from years ago and sent multi-page screeds to all of them disparaging the group. Now THAT's spamming. :) Her account was removed altogether. 
All kidding aside, that's not spamming, that's targeted harassment.   Yes, the target is big, but not indiscriminate.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


 

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 06:20 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
All kidding aside, that's not spamming, that's targeted harassment.
Exactly right. I actually wanted to correct that after writing it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


ro-esp
 

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 05:42 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:
Gender based should have a en dash.
I had to look up that one. I never heard of en dashes and em dashes and thought they were the same as hyphens....

It's a style issue.
No it's not. It's a matter of clarity. "gender-based/genderbased" is one word, an adjective. "gender" is a noun, "based" is a verbform, a participle.
"overpopulated/over-populated" is one word, not two

They're going out of style, and I would not use unless
meaning is unclear. I'm fine without it.
I'm not. Excessive use of spaces is killing clarity, both in English and Dutch.

groetjes, Ronaldo


 

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:40 PM, ro-esp wrote:
Gender based should have a en dash.
I had to look up that one. I never heard of en dashes and em dashes and thought they were the same as hyphens..
The complaint should have been that "gender based" requires a hyphen, not an em dash. So that's the first problem. Second, the hyphen is NOT required. Not any more, according to AP style and other style conventions. Hyphens are going out of style to the extent that they should be left out except where the meaning is unclear. The meaning is perfectly clear in this case, so the hypen (not em dash) is unnecessary.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


 

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
(not em dash)
...or en dash, take your choice. (Em dashes and en dashes, too, are slightly different from each other.)
Bottom line, no hyphen, en dash, or em dash is required here.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 05:40 PM, ro-esp wrote:
I never heard of en dashes and em dashes and thought they were the same as hyphens....
Most do and would.  The distinction is much more one of typesetting, where their length is ever so slightly different.  I know of very few people who don't interpret a small black line between two words, or a prefix and a word, as needed regardless of what typesetting convention was used for it, including hyphen.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore


KWKloeber
 

I’ll fight to the death that proper grammar and structure are important and should be retained no matter.  For instance, one does not know when something may become unclear (to someone else.) What’s the big deal about doing something properly, too much work? More likely ignorance is bliss. 
We all know what it means when getting a txt or email like “Their going to meet us at the restaurant.”  Or “Your a valued customer.”  It doesn’t make it any more palatable jus cuz you know what was meant. 
A compound adjective is a compound adjective. Period (or en dash.)