locked Profiles


 

Hi All,

I've been working on improving profiles for the past few days and I need help. There are a few goals with this work:

- Some have asked for different profile photos per subgroup
- I think others have asked for customizing individual fields per subgroup. I believe this was for anonymous groups? Please verify.
- I want to support a Member Directory, which means that additional privacy controls are needed
- The current privacy control (i.e. if you have a profile name, your profile is public) is confusing and not granular enough
- The ability to specify (at least at the enterprise level) which profile fields are visible overall.

To support all this, things can get complicated and confusing quickly, which I'd like to avoid. And I don't want a system that makes it easy for people to inadvertently share info they'd rather not share.

Here is one way to accomplish all that. I'm not thrilled with it, because it feels complicated. I'd appreciate your feedback.

On each subscription page, there's a new Profile tab. Click that, and you see your profile for that (sub)group. For a normal group, the fields are copied from your main profile, the one you have now that you access by clicking your name at the top right corner. For a subgroup, the fields are copied from the profile of the parent group (which are initially copied from your main profile).

You can change any of these fields, including the photo. You cannot change the profile name; your profile name is unique to you and all your group profiles.

There's a new dropdown option for a privacy control, to determine the privacy level of your group profile. It has options like:

- Profile public
- Profile viewable by group members and parent group members (assuming this is a subgroup)
- Profile viewable by group members only
- Profile is private (but viewable by moderators/owners)

If the profile is viewable by group members, then your profile will appear in a new member directory for the group. Profile privacy is no longer dependent on whether you have a profile name or not. The profile name is still useful, for preventing imposters (it will be displayed with your profile), and in the future for a feature where people can mention you by @profilename and you'll get notified of it.

This feels complicated to me. But I'm not sure how else to support the requirement of being able to have multiple profiles (if I don't have to support that, things become clearer). I'd appreciate your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Sounds reasonable. However, at one level it seems there is less privacy control than before (I'm not commenting on whether this is a good or a bad thing, just noting it), namely: currently, group members can prevent even group owners and moderators from seeing their profile (the mechanism is not important, but they do this of course by having no profile name). Whereas in the new scheme, members must allow at least moderators and owners to see their profile for that group. 

As a group owner I actually personally prefer this, but  that detail of privacy for members seems to go away with the new scheme, unless I'm misunderstanding.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I've been working on improving profiles for the past few days and I need help. There are a few goals with this work:

- Some have asked for different profile photos per subgroup
- I think others have asked for customizing individual fields per subgroup. I believe this was for anonymous groups? Please verify.
- I want to support a Member Directory, which means that additional privacy controls are needed
- The current privacy control (i.e. if you have a profile name, your profile is public) is confusing and not granular enough
- The ability to specify (at least at the enterprise level) which profile fields are visible overall.

To support all this, things can get complicated and confusing quickly, which I'd like to avoid. And I don't want a system that makes it easy for people to inadvertently share info they'd rather not share.

Here is one way to accomplish all that. I'm not thrilled with it, because it feels complicated. I'd appreciate your feedback.

On each subscription page, there's a new Profile tab. Click that, and you see your profile for that (sub)group. For a normal group, the fields are copied from your main profile, the one you have now that you access by clicking your name at the top right corner. For a subgroup, the fields are copied from the profile of the parent group (which are initially copied from your main profile).

You can change any of these fields, including the photo. You cannot change the profile name; your profile name is unique to you and all your group profiles.

There's a new dropdown option for a privacy control, to determine the privacy level of your group profile. It has options like:

- Profile public
- Profile viewable by group members and parent group members (assuming this is a subgroup)
- Profile viewable by group members only
- Profile is private (but viewable by moderators/owners)

If the profile is viewable by group members, then your profile will appear in a new member directory for the group. Profile privacy is no longer dependent on whether you have a profile name or not. The profile name is still useful, for preventing imposters (it will be displayed with your profile), and in the future for a feature where people can mention you by @profilename and you'll get notified of it.

This feels complicated to me. But I'm not sure how else to support the requirement of being able to have multiple profiles (if I don't have to support that, things become clearer). I'd appreciate your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

My opinion:

Have one main Groups.io profile, including the privacy option, that applies to all groups and subgroups. If someone wants to be public in all groups, or private in all groups, that can easily be set. You don't need a "viewable by group members and parent group members" option.

For each group and subgroup, default to the main profile, but allow an override for that group/subgroup only. Every field, including the privacy field, can be overridden. Subgroup profiles default to the group profile, unless they are overridden. (Imagine inheritance in object-oriented programming, except without the ability to add more profile fields.)

Example: Say I have a normal firstname/lastname professional profile I use for a variety of groups, and I'd like it to be public. However, one group I'm in is only for my college buddies, and I want to override my profile in that group to use my old nickname instead, and a possibly more embarrassing photo (but I don't want my public professional people to see that!). My college group is also running a roleplaying adventure in a subgroup, and in that subgroup, I want my name to be my character's name, and I want my character's photo.

This implementation would also work for setting things up for anonymous groups, except the moderator would probably want an option to force a separate profile to be made, so that it does not default to the main profile. That would prevent someone from accidentally posting something sketchy with their real name from another group attached.

Does this sound simpler?

JohnF


 

One thing I'm not that happy with is the concept for the members list. If I understand correctly, it would consist only of profile names of members who make their profile viewable by group members. In a group of a thousand people, that might be 1,000, 500, 10, or none of them. That just strikes me as odd (not the numbers in my example lol). It would have to be made clear to members viewing the list that it's just that subset of members who made their profiles viewable. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I've been working on improving profiles for the past few days and I need help. There are a few goals with this work:

- Some have asked for different profile photos per subgroup
- I think others have asked for customizing individual fields per subgroup. I believe this was for anonymous groups? Please verify.
- I want to support a Member Directory, which means that additional privacy controls are needed
- The current privacy control (i.e. if you have a profile name, your profile is public) is confusing and not granular enough
- The ability to specify (at least at the enterprise level) which profile fields are visible overall.

To support all this, things can get complicated and confusing quickly, which I'd like to avoid. And I don't want a system that makes it easy for people to inadvertently share info they'd rather not share.

Here is one way to accomplish all that. I'm not thrilled with it, because it feels complicated. I'd appreciate your feedback.

On each subscription page, there's a new Profile tab. Click that, and you see your profile for that (sub)group. For a normal group, the fields are copied from your main profile, the one you have now that you access by clicking your name at the top right corner. For a subgroup, the fields are copied from the profile of the parent group (which are initially copied from your main profile).

You can change any of these fields, including the photo. You cannot change the profile name; your profile name is unique to you and all your group profiles.

There's a new dropdown option for a privacy control, to determine the privacy level of your group profile. It has options like:

- Profile public
- Profile viewable by group members and parent group members (assuming this is a subgroup)
- Profile viewable by group members only
- Profile is private (but viewable by moderators/owners)

If the profile is viewable by group members, then your profile will appear in a new member directory for the group. Profile privacy is no longer dependent on whether you have a profile name or not. The profile name is still useful, for preventing imposters (it will be displayed with your profile), and in the future for a feature where people can mention you by @profilename and you'll get notified of it.

This feels complicated to me. But I'm not sure how else to support the requirement of being able to have multiple profiles (if I don't have to support that, things become clearer). I'd appreciate your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Maria
 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 06:24 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
It would have to be made clear to members viewing the list that it's just that subset of members who made their profiles viewable. 

Maybe the Member Directory would have a sub-header to help folks understand how they can be listed in it with a link to their profile. 

Maybe that would clarify that only those with profiles set to display to group members etc are in the directory and that one can opt in to this via a link to one's profile page.

Maria


Maria
 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 05:50 pm, JohnF wrote:
You don't need a "viewable by group members and parent group members" option.

I think you actually do need that option if you are in a group that has sub-groups. 

Maria


 

Hi John,

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:50 PM, JohnF via Groups.io <johnf1686@...> wrote:

Have one main Groups.io profile, including the privacy option, that applies to all groups and subgroups.  If someone wants to be public in all groups, or private in all groups, that can easily be set.  You don't need a "viewable by group members and parent group members" option.

For each group and subgroup, default to the main profile, but allow an override for that group/subgroup only.  Every field, including the privacy field, can be overridden.  Subgroup profiles default to the group profile, unless they are overridden.  (Imagine inheritance in object-oriented programming, except without the ability to add more profile fields.)

If I'm understanding you correctly, this is exactly the scenario I outlined. :-) I do think you explain it better.

Thanks,
Mark


 

Mark,

You can change any of these fields, including the photo. You cannot
change the profile name; your profile name is unique to you and all your
group profiles.
So long as the Profile Name is not revealed in Anonymous groups, as previously discussed. Which means in those groups it cannot be used in the URL by which members or mods access any of the anonymous group member's group-specific profile info.

Is the link to your system-wide profile one of the fields you can change (turn off) in your group profile? That might address J's concern about not being able to prevent group managers from seeing your site-wide profile.

Also, is is your list of group subscriptions reflected in your group profile? And if so, can one hide it or control which groups are shown? That's one of the few things one can't hide or leave blank in the current site-wide profiles.


Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

J,

One thing I'm not that happy with is the concept for the members list.
If I understand correctly, it would consist only of profile names of
members who make their profile viewable by group members. In a group of
a thousand people, that might be 1,000, 500, 10, or none of them. ... It
would have to be made clear to members viewing the list that it's just
that subset of members who made their profiles viewable.
Perhaps the list could always include an entry for yourself (the member viewing the list).

If you've not made your profile visible to other members your row could say "(you)" where the display name goes and "Click here to allow other members to see you in this list" where the rest of the row content would be. That latter would be a link to the profile tab of that member's group subscription.

There could also be a row "(968 others)" representing those who've not made their profile viewable to group members. It could say "Profile withheld" or something like that.


Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


Maria
 

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 12:17 am, Shal Farley wrote:
Perhaps the list could always include an entry for yourself (the member viewing the list).

If you've not made your profile visible to other members your row could say "(you)" where the display name goes and "Click here to allow other members to see you in this list" where the rest of the row content would be. That latter would be a link to the profile tab of that member's group subscription.

There could also be a row "(968 others)" representing those who've not made their profile viewable to group members. It could say "Profile withheld" or something like that.

Love those ideas. 

What if you were told that you couldn't see other's profiles unless you also set one up and made it visible to them? Or is that Silly? (no coffee yet...), but it would stand to reason that if eventually one could do things such as PM from a profile/directory then they ought to be viewable too? So maybe any links in the directory to see more info about the member would only activate if you too are a participant in the directory?

Maria


 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 07:03 pm, HR Tech wrote:
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 05:50 pm, JohnF wrote:
You don't need a "viewable by group members and parent group members" option.
I think you actually do need that option if you are in a group that has
sub-groups. 
OK, rethinking this, without this option, that would make it impossible to have a sub-group profile that's public to main group members (who are not necessarily sub-group members) but your main group profile is private. It would be strange that someone would want to do that, though.

JohnF


Maria
 

Hmm, yes, i see your point. Maybe if the privacy settings are something you adjust per group/per subgroup and the settings you set up in the main group transfer over when you join a sub-group you could have:

- Profile public (anyone - even non members can see it)
- Profile viewable by members of this group only (whether it's a parent group or a subgroup it would be set in each one)
- Profile is private (but viewable by moderators/owners)

So you just wouldn't have the option to allow parent group members to see your profile in a subgroup they are not a part of - which i agree is weird anyway and probably confusing the scenarios as you may have set your profile to private for the main group... Am I missing something?

Maria





 

Hi All,

A question about how profile fields filter down. Say you're a member of a group and one of its subgroups. You change a profile field on the parent group. That gets propagated to your profile on the subgroup. Then you change the same field on your 'main' profile. That won't get propagated to the parent group profile, because you specifically changed that field. But does it get propagated to the subgroup profile?

It's a bit of twisty little passages, all different....

Thanks,
Mark

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:50 PM, JohnF via Groups.io <johnf1686@...> wrote:
My opinion:

Have one main Groups.io profile, including the privacy option, that applies to all groups and subgroups.  If someone wants to be public in all groups, or private in all groups, that can easily be set.  You don't need a "viewable by group members and parent group members" option.

For each group and subgroup, default to the main profile, but allow an override for that group/subgroup only.  Every field, including the privacy field, can be overridden.  Subgroup profiles default to the group profile, unless they are overridden.  (Imagine inheritance in object-oriented programming, except without the ability to add more profile fields.)

Example: Say I have a normal firstname/lastname professional profile I use for a variety of groups, and I'd like it to be public.  However, one group I'm in is only for my college buddies, and I want to override my profile in that group to use my old nickname instead, and a possibly more embarrassing photo (but I don't want my public professional people to see that!).  My college group is also running a roleplaying adventure in a subgroup, and in that subgroup, I want my name to be my character's name, and I want my character's photo.

This implementation would also work for setting things up for anonymous groups, except the moderator would probably want an option to force a separate profile to be made, so that it does not default to the main profile.  That would prevent someone from accidentally posting something sketchy with their real name from another group attached.

Does this sound simpler?

JohnF





Maria
 

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 05:16 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
But does it get propagated to the subgroup profile?

My first reaction is to say no. I'm feeling like the edits in profiles within a group/subgroup are one thing. Edits to the main profile are another?

Maria


 

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi All,

A question about how profile fields filter down. Say you're a member of a group and one of its subgroups. You change a profile field on the parent group. That gets propagated to your profile on the subgroup. Then you change the same field on your 'main' profile. That won't get propagated to the parent group profile, because you specifically changed that field. But does it get propagated to the subgroup profile?

To clarify my question a tiny bit. I'm asking if the change on the parent group's field 'blocks' the change to the subgroup's field. Or if every subscription is considered by itself.

Thanks,
Mark 


 

Well, you were planning to have some of the fields configurable for enterprise customers, so you could have the fields themselves filter down into groups rather than the entire profile. Then a group profile wouldn't override the main profile completely, just the fields that are different. That would allow a change to the main profile to a field not overridden by the group to be filtered down.

If it is a field overridden in the group profile, then that group override should be passed down to the subgroup, no matter what the main profile field is changed to. On the other hand, if that field filters down to the group, then it will also filter down to the subgroup, unless it is overridden there.

I would say this is too much work except that you were expecting to have that sort of granularity for the enterprise case, so you'd probably have to implement it that way anyway.

JohnF


Maria
 

I may not be understanding the question (or maybe I am lost!) but I would think that no, the change in the main profile wouldn't trickle to the subgroup, in the same way that it shouldn't trickle to the main group. So, yes, I guess it would block the change on the subgroup?

Maria


 

Hi All,

Another profile question. Right now, there's no way to hide your profile photo and display name, if you have them set (and we try to set your display name to the name in your emails if you haven't specifically set it). This is to provide a better experience viewing archives, where we can display a nice photo and name next to your messages.

Under the new scheme, do the privacy controls apply to the profile photo and display name? What if you have your profile set to only be visible to other members, you post a message to a group with public archives, and someone who is not a member of the group views those archives? Do we display a placeholder image and your fig leafed email address, like we do for messages from non-subscribers? Seems that would be a degradation of the overall experience, so I'm tempted to say no. 

Thoughts? Thanks,
Mark


Maria
 

We won't have public archives - but if I participated in a group that did and I'd set my profile to be visible ONLY to group members or private, I'd probably not want my photo visible to non members/public? Also, I might assume it wouldn't be visible if I'd decided I wanted it to be visible to group members too. Then again... on FB your profile photo is visible to anyone who can "find" you ( used to be that you could even hide that). So maybe the profile photo being viewable to the public despite your profile being for members only wouldn't be that much of a foreign idea.

Maria


 

Sounds like another setting. You have "private archives" or "public archives." Could be the same with profiles.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu