locked Possible bug with "I always want copies of my own messages"? #bug


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Hello All,

           As is well-known in these parts, I don't generally interact with Groups.io via e-mail, but I have on occasion turned on the various subscription options trying to test things out for myself or someone else.  There has been a recent post from an e-mail participant on one of the groups I frequent that his own e-mail address is not showing up on the messages he receives that he originated in various threads.  I, and most others, seem to get something that notes that our own messages are from ourselves "via groups.io".

           I thought this might be somehow related to the feature mentioned in the subject of this message that can be found on any member's profile at this page:  https://groups.io/editprofile?page=profile.  I changed my subscription to "All Messages" and turned the "always want" setting on, and I get an e-mail message with what I post here via the web interface.  However, if I turn the "always want" feature off, but with "All Messages" on, I see absolutely no change in what comes to my inbox at all.

           Is the "always want" feature somehow linked to digests, but has no effect on individual messages coming via e-mail?  I had suspected, prior to this undertaking, that I might get nothing in my inbox for my own posts when "always want" and "All Messages" was set on, but I do.

           I'm now at a bit of a loss as to what the "always want" feature is all about.  It seems to have no effect at all, but that could be because it only means anything when your subscription is not "All Messages".  What's up here?
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 
Edited

Brian,

There has been a recent post from an e-mail participant on one of the
groups I frequent that his own e-mail address is not showing up on the
messages he receives that he originated in various threads.
Probably DMARC. If the person uses Yahoo Mail, or certain other email services, Groups.io will modify the From address of their message to be from the groups.io domain, and their email address encoded in the user name part of the address. That is, their From will look like:

From: Display Name < user = example.com @ groups.io >

This is a work-around to the DMARC problem. It's a long story, but the short of it is that DMARC is an anti-spoofing technology that causes their customer's messages, if passed through an email list, to be dropped or quarantined on receipt.

Groups.io detects when the sender's email service is using that technology, and modifies the From field so that the message is no longer a "spoof", and this makes the message much more likely to be delivered to users of email services that detect DMARC usage on the receiving side.

I, and most others, seem to get something that notes that our own
messages are from ourselves "via groups.io".
That's a way that some email services let you know that the message came via a list, rather than directly from the sender.

I changed my subscription to "All Messages" and turned the "always want"
setting on, and I get an e-mail message with what I post here via the
web interface. However, if I turn the "always want" feature off, but
with "All Messages" on, I see absolutely no change in what comes to my
inbox at all.
The "always want" feature is a work-around for Gmail's default behavior with list messages.

Gmail, and certain other email services, use the Message-ID field in a message to detect when a received message is one you've sent; and then it hides the received message from you. I think that those messages may be findable in the "All Mail" folder in Gmail, but I'm not certain of that.

The "always want" feature causes Groups.io to replace the message's Message-ID field with one generated by groups.io. When that is done Gmail no longer recognizes the message as being something you already have, and so it lands in your Inbox.


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


 

Shal,

A two-fer! Illustrates (1) importance of 'reason for edit' box and (2) inconvenience of fig leaf. :-)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 10, 2016, at 9:47 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Undo "fig-leafing". Inserted spaces to escape it.]

Brian,

There has been a recent post from an e-mail participant on one of the
groups I frequent that his own e-mail address is not showing up on the
messages he receives that he originated in various threads.
Probably DMARC. If the person uses Yahoo Mail, or certain other email services, Groups.io will modify the From address of their message to be from the groups.io domain, and their email address encoded in the user name part of the address. That is, their From will look like:

From: Display Name < user = example.com @ groups.io >

This is a work-around to the DMARC problem. It's a long story, but the short of it is that DMARC is an anti-spoofing technology that causes their customer's messages, if passed through an email list, to be dropped or quarantined on receipt.

Groups.io detects when the sender's email service is using that technology, and modifies the From field so that the message is no longer a "spoof", and this makes the message much more likely to be delivered to users of email services that detect DMARC usage on the receiving side.

I, and most others, seem to get something that notes that our own
messages are from ourselves "via groups.io".
That's a way that some email services let you know that the message came via a list, rather than directly from the sender.

I changed my subscription to "All Messages" and turned the "always want"
setting on, and I get an e-mail message with what I post here via the
web interface. However, if I turn the "always want" feature off, but
with "All Messages" on, I see absolutely no change in what comes to my
inbox at all.
The "always want" feature is a work-around for Gmail's default behavior with list messages.

Gmail, and certain other email services, use the Message-ID field in a message to detect when a received message is one you've sent; and then it hides the received message from you. I think that those messages may be findable in the "All Mail" folder in Gmail, but I'm not certain of that.

The "always want" feature causes Groups.io to replace the message's Message-ID field with one generated by groups.io. When that is done Gmail no longer recognizes the message as being something you already have, and so it lands in your Inbox.


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


Maria
 

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 09:49 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
Gmail, and certain other email services, use the Message-ID field in a message to detect when a received message is one you've sent; and then it hides the received message from you. I think that those messages may be findable in the "All Mail" folder in Gmail, but I'm not certain of that.

Thanks Shal! That's been driving me crazy - I've had members enquire why they don't get copies of their own posts in gmail from Y! and now I know why and what to tell them. How great groups.io has a solution for this. 

Maria


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I appreciate the explanation, as it tells me a lot.

I use Gmail, but I get precisely the same thing in my inbox whether or not "always want" is checked or not.  Why is that? [Perhaps I'm being dense, but I can't figure that bit out from the detailed explanation you gave, Shal.]
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


Duane
 

The difference with Gmail will only show up on your own posts, with an individual messages receive setting. All others should work the same regardless of the "always want" setting.

Duane


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 07:33 am, Duane wrote:
The difference with Gmail will only show up on your own posts, with an individual messages receive setting.

What part of my detailed initial report, describing every possible tweaking of combinations of "All Messages" and "always want" resulting in precisely the same result with regard to my own posts was unclear?

That's the whole reason for my questioning what's happening here.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


Duane
 

I understood your report. I was trying to make clear that it would only effect your own posts via email, and then only if you receive every message individually. If that doesn't answer it, I don't understand the question.

Duane


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 08:43 am, Duane wrote:
I don't understand the question.

 Clearly, you don't.  I said:

  1. I turned on the "All Messages" subscription for the purposes of this test.
  2. I turned on the "always want" feature.
  3. I posted.
  4. I turned off the "always want" feature.
  5. I posted.
  6. What I get in my e-mail is precisely the same whether or not the "always want" feature is on or off.

If the "always want" feature is supposed to be doing something when someone is using Gmail and when "All Messages" is their subscription option, it does not appear to be doing whatever it is supposed to do, since there is zero difference in behaviors as far as e-mail messages go when I'm posting (and that was from the web forum).   If this is something that comes into play only when one is both posting via e-mail and reading via e-mail it would be good to note that in some way, because context is critical.  If it's supposed to come into play always, then it doesn't seem to do anything.

I'm also posting from the test system at the moment and was during the experiment, but this feature isn't new and I wouldn't expect it to behave differently in production versus testing unless a bug of some sort has been introduced.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


Duane
 

I think this clears it up. In order for "always want" to do anything, you'd have to post via gmail, as well as receive via gmail. Posting on the web will always show the post because gmail hasn't seen it before. As far as I know, this setting only applies to gmail, but possibly services using their platform. This was clearly understood back when it was implemented last year, but I can see that there should be a better explanation for new folks on the site.

Duane


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

So far, the only thing that's different when I post and receive via Gmail is that I do receive a duplicate of the message I posted when "always want" is on.  However, I also receive it as a part of the normal thread e-mail process, too, so it seems to be utterly superfluous.

I'm leaving it on for a short while longer, then will turn it off to allow a few more messages to collect without it.

If the purpose was to insure that you weren't missing your own posts because of some Gmail quirk, that quirk seems to be gone and the need for the "always want" along with it.  
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 

Brian,

I think that's right. I think the setting could be gotten rid of. 

If "always want copies" is on, then if I send a message via gmail, gmail sends me two copies back: my sent message plus the message re-sent by Groups.io. If it's off, then I get just one copy. Whether or not it's on, I always get a copy of any message I post via the web. So I'd vote for getting rid of the setting.

I've had group members complain about the duplicates and have tried to explain it away. I think something in gmail may have changed since the "always want copies" setting was implemented.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

        Based on my testing results I have to agree with your premise.  It's really annoying to get two copies of the same message.  It's just as annoying as missing a copy of your own message entirely, particularly if it is the start of a thread.

        It seems that one never misses one's own messages when using Gmail now, so the setting is an anachronism (at least for Gmail - I have no idea if it's necessary for any other provider).  If it was only for Gmail it could be removed.  If it's needed for others it would make sense to give a detailed explanation of where and when it should be used as part of the setting itself.  It sure confused me, and I now think that a recent complaint about duplicate messages is probably the result of this setting being on.


On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:13 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Brian,

I think that's right. I think the setting could be gotten rid of. 

If "always want copies" is on, then if I send a message via gmail, gmail sends me two copies back: my sent message plus the message re-sent by Groups.io. If it's off, then I get just one copy. Whether or not it's on, I always get a copy of any message I post via the web. So I'd vote for getting rid of the setting.

I've had group members complain about the duplicates and have tried to explain it away. I think something in gmail may have changed since the "always want copies" setting was implemented.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.




--
Bri the Tech Guy          http://britechguy.com
britechguy@...            (540) 324-5032 or (540) 849-0023                            
"If it's got you screaming, I'll help you stop!!"

--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
        It seems that one never misses one's own messages when using Gmail now, so the setting is an anachronism (at least for Gmail - I have no idea if it's necessary for any other provider).  If it was only for Gmail it could be removed.  If it's needed for others it would make sense to give a detailed explanation of where and when it should be used as part of the setting itself.  It sure confused me, and I now think that a recent complaint about duplicate messages is probably the result of this setting being on.


I just tested this and, at least for me, nothing has changed on Gmail's end. If I have unchecked the box, I do not receive a new copy of the email. If it's checked, I do. This is with Gmail in Google Apps, but I'd be surprised if it's any different for normal Gmail. 

If you're using an email client with Gmail, I can believe that you'd see different behavior, as how sent emails are shown is a decision of each email client.

Cheers,
Mark 


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

            I use the Gmail web interface as my sole day-to-day interface to Gmail.  I also have Thunderbird, Outlook 2010, and Windows Live Mail 2012 installed for testing reasons.  I have the e-mail account that is my Groups.io account in Outlook and am seeing the same thing as I see in the Gmail web interface.  If I have "always want" on I get a duplicate message where my own e-mail address is the sender but I always get the one that says "Brian Vogel via groups.io", whether or not "always want" is on.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 

Mark,

This is really odd. I only use gmail (but I don't use Google Apps). Here is the result of the four cases. I've seen this behavior for at least six months and once reported it to you, but figured I was a "one-off" and gave up on it - until today, when I saw Brian's post. I also have members complaining about "why they're getting two copies of their messages." I told one of them to uncheck the box, and she did, and reported that it did no good:

1. send message via email, "receive copies" checked: two copies of the message in my inbox

2. send message via web, "receive copies" checked: one copy, all is good

3. send message via email, "receive copies" unchecked: one copy, all is good

4. send message via web, "receive copies" unchecked: one copy, all is good.

Summary: everything is fine unless the box is checked and you send a message via email. In that case, you get duplicate copies. As Brian says, getting the two copies is really annoying. I am advising group members who experience this to uncheck the box. I don't know if there's something else I'm aware of that makes the setting necessary, since I am totally unfamiliar with the ins and outs of email. No pun intended.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

And just for clarity, I get the duplicate if and only if the original message is submitted via e-mail, not via the web interface.  My situation is pretty much precisely as J describes.


--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 

Right. And for another clue, although I have no idea what this means: one of them is always purple (like when you copy and paste something) and the other one is normal font.

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

And just for clarity, I get the duplicate if and only if the original message is submitted via e-mail, not via the web interface.  My situation is pretty much precisely as J describes.


--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

         You'll notice on the web interface that my message that starts out, "Based on my testing results" from 6:26 PM is in deep red.  My original e-mail message uses a different font, but in this color, and the color but not the font is carried over to the web posting of the original e-mail message.

          I don't know how, if, or whether this applies in any way to your purple text, but wanted to point it out.

--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


 

Brian,

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 04:14 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:

         You'll notice on the web interface that my message that starts out, "Based on my testing results" from 6:26 PM is in deep red.  My original e-mail message uses a different font,

Yes, found it. Curioser and curioser, because mine do the color-change thing only in the email version that I get. I always wondered why some of your posts were in color! 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.