moderated Accessibility Related: "Dropdown Links" on Groups.io Main Page


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I was just trying to assist someone who's a screen reader user with regard to how to unmute threads, which has to be done via the web interface (unless there's some secret e-mail option of which I'm unaware).  See:  https://groups.io/g/Group_Help/topic/muting_threads_in_groups_io/20010651

What follows is probably a "below the hood" question that's excessively geeky, but it would help me to know the answer.   When using a screen reader on the groups.io main page, and landing on "Topics" with the dropdown link to the right, which I'd instinctively think is a button, it is announced as "Topics link."   There is no way that any screen reader user would know that this link is, in actuality, behaving as a dropdown where, once expanded, you have access to "All topics", "Muted topics," and "Followed topics."  The same applies in regard to the hashtag link.

Is there some way to give alternate text for those two links (which behave for all the world like buttons that give dropdown lists) so that it would say, "Topics/Hashtags (respectively) link, activate to get options," or something similar.

It would be great if it did that for any link structured such that when you activate it what you get is a list of further options, not unlike what used to be presented in a menu, where if you had a submenu for a given item that would be announced.

While these links are not inaccessible in an absolute sense they are in a practical sense.  Without a sighted assistant such as myself to make a screen reader user aware that those links are not links in any conventional sense they'd breeze right past them under normal circumstances.  Because I can see it's obvious from the dropdown arrow that something else is going to be presented when those links are activated.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.


Andre Polykanine <andre@...>
 

Hi Brian,
A screen-reader user here :).
What I do is I just navigate to the direct URL (thank you Mark for
good and understandable URLs!):
http://groups.io/g/mygroup/topics
So I don't even bother myself with those dropdowns. I admit though
that, being almost fully accessible, Groups.io still needs some
polishing in this part.
Hope this helps at least as a work-around.

--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine

------------ Original message ------------
From: Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@beta.groups.io
Date created: , 8:30:24 PM
Subject: [beta] Accessibility Related: "Dropdown Links" on Groups.io Main Page


I was just trying to assist someone who's a screen reader user with regard to how to unmute threads, which has to be done via the web interface (unless there's some secret e-mail option of which I'm unaware).  See:  https://groups.io/g/Group_Help/topic/muting_threads_in_groups_io/20010651

What follows is probably a "below the hood" question that's excessively geeky, but it would help me to know the answer.   When using a screen reader on the groups.io main page, and landing on "Topics" with the dropdown link to the right, which I'd instinctively think is a button, it is announced as "Topics link."   There is no way that any screen reader user would know that this link is, in actuality, behaving as a dropdown where, once expanded, you have access to "All topics", "Muted topics," and "Followed topics."  The same applies in regard to the hashtag link.

Is there some way to give alternate text for those two links (which behave for all the world like buttons that give dropdown lists) so that it would say, "Topics/Hashtags (respectively) link, activate to get options," or something similar.

It would be great if it did that for any link structured such that when you activate it what you get is a list of further options, not unlike what used to be presented in a menu, where if you had a submenu for a given item that would be announced.

While these links are not inaccessible in an absolute sense they are in a practical sense.  Without a sighted assistant such as myself to make a screen reader user aware that those links are not links in any conventional sense they'd breeze right past them under normal circumstances.  Because I can see it's obvious from the dropdown arrow that something else is going to be presented when those links are activated.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Andre,

           We're talking apples and oranges here.  I am speaking about the groups.io main page, not the main page for a specific group on groups.io.  That is where you do your unmuting of threads you've previously muted via the e-mail interface.

           The respective links that act as dropdown triggers for topics and hashtags, respectively, are:

                                  https://groups.io/#messagemenu     (topics)

                                   https://groups.io/#tagsmenu            (hashtags)

Each of these is announced by NVDA as though it were just a link like any other link, with no indication that it is a control to let you reveal your choices for that category by activating it.  When you activate it, NVDA does say expanded, then you need to arrow down to hear the three links that are your choices.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.


Andre Polykanine <andre@...>
 

Brian,
Oops, I'm sorry.
You are absolutely right. Moreover, JAWS (which I use) sees an odd
character (reported as U+F028) and this particular character is the
link, not the word "topics". And yepp, dropdowns are not indicated in
a11y tree.


--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine

------------ Original message ------------
From: Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@beta.groups.io
Date created: , 10:21:40 PM
Subject: [beta] Accessibility Related: "Dropdown Links" on Groups.io Main Page


Andre,

           We're talking apples and oranges here.  I am speaking about the groups.io main page, not the main page for a specific group on groups.io.  That is where you do your unmuting of threads you've previously muted via the e-mail interface.

           The respective links that act as dropdown triggers for topics and hashtags, respectively, are:

                                  https://groups.io/#messagemenu     (topics)

                                   https://groups.io/#tagsmenu            (hashtags)

Each of these is announced by NVDA as though it were just a link like any other link, with no indication that it is a control to let you reveal your choices for that category by activating it.  When you activate it, NVDA does say expanded, then you need to arrow down to hear the three links that are your choices.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.


Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually don't understand what the issue is. For me it's totally accessible. I hit it and vo says expanded I then can filter like you said, I can then just go to where I need to go. I fi arrow away and back to it I hear "expanded: so I just hit space to make it not expanded. Maybe it's just me being used to these things but for me it is not an issue. I've dealt with these kind of things in wordpress and voiceover renders it correctly over here.

On May 24, 2018, at 4:00 PM, Andre Polykanine <andre@oire.org> wrote:

Brian,
Oops, I'm sorry.
You are absolutely right. Moreover, JAWS (which I use) sees an odd
character (reported as U+F028) and this particular character is the
link, not the word "topics". And yepp, dropdowns are not indicated in
a11y tree.


--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine


------------ Original message ------------
From: Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@beta.groups.io
Date created: , 10:21:40 PM
Subject: [beta] Accessibility Related: "Dropdown Links" on Groups.io Main Page


Andre,

We're talking apples and oranges here. I am speaking about the groups.io main page, not the main page for a specific group on groups.io. That is where you do your unmuting of threads you've previously muted via the e-mail interface.

The respective links that act as dropdown triggers for topics and hashtags, respectively, are:

https://groups.io/#messagemenu (topics)

https://groups.io/#tagsmenu (hashtags)

Each of these is announced by NVDA as though it were just a link like any other link, with no indication that it is a control to let you reveal your choices for that category by activating it. When you activate it, NVDA does say expanded, then you need to arrow down to hear the three links that are your choices.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.





Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Sarah,

         If you're using Voiceover then you're on a Mac and in "a different word" from Andre and myself.  Different screen readers in the same OS ecosystem, e.g., JAWS and NVDA, are behaving slightly differently so it's no shock that another screen reader in an entirely different OS ecosystem is doing something else again.

         What I was trying to explain, which is coming from someone who's sighted, is that I don't think something that functions as a dropdown is "fully accessible" unless a screen reader user is aware that this is what it is because the screen reader tells them so.  When I hear, "link, topics," I don't think of it as any different than when I hear, "link, groups.io" in that when I activate either I expect I will be taken to the place announced (or related to the click-through text when someone is using that).  In this case just hearing "link, topic" would give me no idea that it's behaving, in essence, like a menu and you need to expand it (and you don't expand links, at least not to my mind, but I understand why it gets announced that way in this case) to see what your options are.  How on earth would you know this if you were entirely unfamiliar with the page and just navigating around it?  I ask that sincerely since there are always things I'm learning I didn't know before (but if it's tied to Voiceover it will be, for me, of academic interest only as I don't inhabit that world).
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.


Sarah k Alawami
 

Right.  I think for example when I hear link and I click it, it does say expanded and stuff. I have no idea if voiceover is reading the aria tag or what not.  I'm not on my windows machine right now to test so right now I cannot comment any further. 

Here is though a small demo attached via a link of waht I see with groups.io and voiceover. I did not do a screen cap as i'm way too lazy right now and I'm just a bit tired and my computer is having issues. Lol!


Blessings and happy Thursday.

On May 24, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Sarah,

         If you're using Voiceover then you're on a Mac and in "a different word" from Andre and myself.  Different screen readers in the same OS ecosystem, e.g., JAWS and NVDA, are behaving slightly differently so it's no shock that another screen reader in an entirely different OS ecosystem is doing something else again.

         What I was trying to explain, which is coming from someone who's sighted, is that I don't think something that functions as a dropdown is "fully accessible" unless a screen reader user is aware that this is what it is because the screen reader tells them so.  When I hear, "link, topics," I don't think of it as any different than when I hear, "link, groups.io" in that when I activate either I expect I will be taken to the place announced (or related to the click-through text when someone is using that).  In this case just hearing "link, topic" would give me no idea that it's behaving, in essence, like a menu and you need to expand it (and you don't expand links, at least not to my mind, but I understand why it gets announced that way in this case) to see what your options are.  How on earth would you know this if you were entirely unfamiliar with the page and just navigating around it?  I ask that sincerely since there are always things I'm learning I didn't know before (but if it's tied to Voiceover it will be, for me, of academic interest only as I don't inhabit that world).
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 
     Knowledge consists of a collection of uninspired facts. Wisdom is their artful use.