moderated automatic deletion, why?
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ro-esp
I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people automatically. Wouldn it be far more practical if messages being sent back or reported as spam would trigger a message to the moderator like:
message such-and such was reported as spam by pq@.../ sent back by provider xxyy. Do you wish to contact the member or unsubscribe him/her ? groetjes, Ronaldo
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Bob Bellizzi
Unless you review the entire thread of this subject or you've been a mail server software specialist or something similar, you won't understand it.
-- Bob Bellizzi Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
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Barbara Byers
My recommendation would be to do nothing. Stop unsubscribing them. It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves. Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it. Barb
On 2018-03-19 03:50 PM, RickGlaz wrote:
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On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243 Bruce
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It seems to be groundhog day around here...
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote: On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote: --
J
Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones. I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu
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Barbara Byers
Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing. "...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes." Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen? Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it. Right? I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat. In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me. It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it. Barb
On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
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Yes, it is a horrible real threat. Read the threads about this in GMF, especially one just now by Bruce Bowman.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:
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J
Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones. I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu
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ro-esp
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:
After some late night reading, it seems to be like this: some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders. maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue groetjes, Ronaldo
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Barbara Byers
Good idea, thanks. Barb
On 2018-03-19 08:21 PM, ro-esp wrote:
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Ronaldo, maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue
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toki
On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:
Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement FBL. Here is how it escalates. AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum. At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small, but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to be delisted. Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.) jonathon
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Barbara Byers
Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive, Barb
On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:
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Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:
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J
Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones. I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu
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Barbara Byers
OK, whatever you say. Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks. I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else. Barb
On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
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If you make accusations, some of us are going to defend ourselves. Good night.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:
--
J
Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones. I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu
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I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar? Dave On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:
http://davesergeant.com
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Dave,
I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and allGranted it is still speculation, but my belief with respect to Yahoo Groups is that they stopped upgrades before Yahoo Mail implemented the mechanism. Another possibility is that larger, longer-established services may get a pass from the email services. Or at least better information about the email service's intent when sending the reports. Some other GMF members and I been trying to consolidate what information is available here: https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam Eventually I'll want to add citations to it other than just the Wikipedia article, including citing the messages from Mark about it. Shal
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Ronaldo,
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message landsNote that the FBL mechanism is based on a contract between the sending service and the receiving service - just any old spam source won't be getting reports (assuming the receiving service has been careful enough). Too, the amount of information reported to the sending service may vary - some receiving services don't include the email address that reported the message as spam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) Shal
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Barb,
Actually, I'm close to thinking this might be the practical answer. It goes with the objection that Dave and others have raised: why is it that other list services apparently do not do this? Groups.io cares on behalf of the other members using the same email service. The implementation on Groups.io started with the observation that a lot of group messages were not being delivered to certain services. And I think that means "bounced" and/or greylisted, not merely diverted to Spam. So Mark sought a way to improve overall deliverability to those services. Perhaps the other list services take a less altruistic view of it. If you (a member) are fool enough to continue using a service that doesn't deliver the mail you want to your Inbox, well that's your problem. The fact that your problem is (in part) caused by the actions or inattention of other users of your email service doesn't mean that it isn't still your problem. But... (there's always a but) Would that choice merely trade one source of ongoing complaint and confusion for another, potentially larger one? That is, "why aren't I getting the group's messages?" has long been a FAQ (at least in Yahoo Groups). People are told to check their spam folders and to add addresses to their filters and/or address books. And of course if the delivery through that service deteriorates to the point of routinely rejecting messages from Groups.io, that doesn't reflect well on Groups.io as a service either. Shal
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I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.
Noel
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