Topics

moderated automatic deletion, why?


ro-esp
 

I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people automatically. Wouldn it be far more practical if messages being sent back or reported as spam would trigger a message to the moderator like:

message such-and such was reported as spam by pq@.../ sent back by provider xxyy. Do you wish to contact the member or unsubscribe him/her ?


groetjes, Ronaldo


Bob Bellizzi
 

Unless you review the entire thread of this subject or you've been a mail server software specialist or something similar, you won't understand it.

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


Barbara Byers
 

My recommendation would be to do nothing.  Stop unsubscribing them.  It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves.  Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 03:50 PM, RickGlaz wrote:

I think I nailed the bug, but a second opinion from the OP is still reassuring...
Sorry if I'm rushing too much...

RickGlaz

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:29 am, RickGlaz wrote:

Remember how Screwed up Yahoo Groups got when they loaded it up with lots
of extra stuff. Be Careful what you ask for... ;-(

Speaking of which, I'm chasing an error in sending...
I've set up the correct scenario.
IF "groetjes, Ronaldo" (ONLY) sees my/this exact reply come back more than once
PLEASE let me know either way. 1, 2, etc...

Rick

On March 19, 2018 at 9:49 AM ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically. Wouldn it be far more practical if messages being sent
back or reported as spam would trigger a message to the moderator like:

message such-and such was reported as spam by pq@.../ sent back by
provider xxyy. Do you wish to contact the member or unsubscribe him/her
?


groetjes, Ronaldo



Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce


 

It seems to be groundhog day around here...

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Barbara Byers
 

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce


 

Yes, it is a horrible real threat. Read the threads about this in GMF, especially one just now by Bruce Bowman.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


ro-esp
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically.
After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

groetjes, Ronaldo


Barbara Byers
 

Good idea, thanks.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 08:21 PM, ro-esp wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

                                                                   groetjes, Ronaldo


 

Ronaldo,

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue


toki
 

On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon


Barbara Byers
 

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon





 

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Barbara Byers
 

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


 

If you make accusations, some of us are going to defend ourselves. Good night.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


Dave Sergeant
 

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon




http://davesergeant.com


 

Dave,

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all
my other various email list providers continue to work well without
having this automatic unsubscribe?
Granted it is still speculation, but my belief with respect to Yahoo Groups is that they stopped upgrades before Yahoo Mail implemented the mechanism. Another possibility is that larger, longer-established services may get a pass from the email services. Or at least better information about the email service's intent when sending the reports.

Some other GMF members and I been trying to consolidate what information is available here:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Eventually I'll want to add citations to it other than just the Wikipedia article, including citing the messages from Mark about it.

Shal


 

Ronaldo,

some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands
in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the
address is live...]
Note that the FBL mechanism is based on a contract between the sending service and the receiving service - just any old spam source won't be getting reports (assuming the receiving service has been careful enough).

Too, the amount of information reported to the sending service may vary - some receiving services don't include the email address that reported the message as spam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email)

Shal


 

Barb,

My recommendation would be to do nothing.  Stop unsubscribing them.  It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves.

Actually, I'm close to thinking this might be the practical answer. It goes with the objection that Dave and others have raised: why is it that other list services apparently do not do this?

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it

Groups.io cares on behalf of the other members using the same email service. The implementation on Groups.io started with the observation that a lot of group messages were not being delivered to certain services. And I think that means "bounced" and/or greylisted, not merely diverted to Spam. So Mark sought a way to improve overall deliverability to those services.

Perhaps the other list services take a less altruistic view of it. If you (a member) are fool enough to continue using a service that doesn't deliver the mail you want to your Inbox, well that's your problem. The fact that your problem is (in part) caused by the actions or inattention of other users of your email service doesn't mean that it isn't still your problem.

But... (there's always a but)

Would that choice merely trade one source of ongoing complaint and confusion for another, potentially larger one?

That is, "why aren't I getting the group's messages?" has long been a FAQ (at least in Yahoo Groups). People are told to check their spam folders and to add addresses to their filters and/or address books. And of course if the delivery through that service deteriorates to the point of routinely rejecting messages from Groups.io, that doesn't reflect well on Groups.io as a service either.

Shal


Noel Leaver
 

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

Noel