Date   

locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

Brenda, No! Mark gets no more time! (*bangs fork on plate*....;)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Nightowl <featheredleader@att.net> wrote:

catlady wrote:>>Brenda, We're on the same page here. I've been bemoaning this problem for months. I think I will continue to post concrete examples showing specifically why this is annoying and truly problematic, because I'm not sure the seriousness of the issue has gotten through yet. It is a huge detriment to the
product IMO.<<

I agree, search is a really important feature. Bear in mind though, that even Yahoo failed to get it's search fixed to the satisfaction of all users. So I'd give Mark some time and try to be patient, because search is one of the hardest things to get tweaked just right. We are still in Beta, right?

Even Google still has some problems not returning the results I want. ;)

Brenda



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: New test/mobile version

Nightowl >8#
 

catlady wrote:>>Brenda, We're on the same page here. I've been bemoaning this problem for months. I think I will continue to post concrete examples showing specifically why this is annoying and truly problematic, because I'm not sure the seriousness of the issue has gotten through yet. It is a huge detriment to the
product IMO.<<

I agree, search is a really important feature. Bear in mind though, that even Yahoo failed to get it's search fixed to the satisfaction of all users. So I'd give Mark some time and try to be patient, because search is one of the hardest things to get tweaked just right. We are still in Beta, right?

Even Google still has some problems not returning the results I want. ;)

Brenda


locked Re: Feedback on New Mobile Test Version

Nightowl >8#
 

Duane wrote:>>If you only want to quote part of it, you can highlight that part before hitting the Reply button and it will copy it in for you.<<

AHAH!! I was doing it wrong. I was hitting reply, highlighting the part I wanted to quote and hitting the balloon after that which wasn't working.

Thank you for the explanation, I had to come back and find this post to see if I had misinterpreted your directions, and I had. ;)

Now someone tell me how to make sure I'm in plain text, and we'll have this replying process on track again. ;)

Brenda


locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

Shal mentions indexing, databases, etc. Smoke and mirrors. (BTW I used to do database design and query optimization so I don't need the lecture, although it was in another life.) Surely there is a way to produce exact matches, including of parts of words. Perhaps post-processing of the initial results? Would be faster than making the user go through those half-baked (euphemism) initial results by hand... It's been a long time and I certainly have no expertise in this any more but it doesn't seem like rocket science. Heck, even yahoo does better (*attempts to goad Mark*...:-)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:50 AM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Brenda, We're on the same page here. I've been bemoaning this problem for months. I think I will continue to post concrete examples showing specifically why this is annoying and truly problematic, because I'm not sure the seriousness of the issue has gotten through yet. It is a huge detriment to the product IMO.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:46 AM, Nightowl <featheredleader@att.net> wrote:

Hehee... Shal, I just wrote about trying for "Exact Matches" right before reading this post. ;)

Guess we're both on the same track here. :)

Brenda

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author.

It's dumb to buy smart water.


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

Brenda, We're on the same page here. I've been bemoaning this problem for months. I think I will continue to post concrete examples showing specifically why this is annoying and truly problematic, because I'm not sure the seriousness of the issue has gotten through yet. It is a huge detriment to the product IMO.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:46 AM, Nightowl <featheredleader@att.net> wrote:

Hehee... Shal, I just wrote about trying for "Exact Matches" right before reading this post. ;)

Guess we're both on the same track here. :)

Brenda



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: New test/mobile version

Nightowl >8#
 

Hehee... Shal, I just wrote about trying for "Exact Matches" right before reading this post. ;)

Guess we're both on the same track here. :)

Brenda


locked Re: New test/mobile version

Nightowl >8#
 

Shal wrote:>>There may be a clever way to solve the problem, possibly by having a meta-index of the partials contained in indexed words, but this is really beyond my depth where database design and use are concerned. Possibly an answer lies in ElasticSearch's impenetrable documentation, but I don't envy Mark's task in trying to prise it out.<<

Shal, what about a criteria that does an "Exact Match" search? That's what sites like the Post Dispatch uses if you don't want parts of words or 'ings or 's.

Brenda


locked Re: New website is live + reply to changes

 

Shal, That's my suggestion. Glad you agree.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

Also, it's a step in the right direction that the subject includes the
word "private," but I don't think that's enough. There have been many,
many occasions when despite my typing "Offlist - private" into the
title, the recipient still has no idea that the message is private
because they ignore titles and are reading the message bodies.
I think you're right. Perhaps a note inserted at the top of the body as well, something similar to the edited message notice:

[Private Message Follows]


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: Message # / permalink icon display

Nightowl >8#
 

Maria wrote:>>Sorry, obsessing over the visual elements on mobile ;)<<

You shouldn't be sorry for that. You need the visual elements to work for you on mobile, just the same way I need them to work for me on desktop. There's nothing wrong with stating what you need or would work better for you. :)

Brenda


locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

Yep.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

What about the approximate matches?
This goes with the indexed search mechanism. One way to compensate for the lack of partial matches in the index is to index word stems, and use language-based rules (dictionaries) for transforming the search query into a word stem.

For example, I did a search on the word "disabled" and also got all
messages containing the word "disability."
You would likely have seen results for "disables", "disabling" and any other word with disable as a stem.

Even if I put it in quotation marks, I get back all the other stuff.
Here I agree with you strongly. Even if word stemming is used to improve general results, there ought to be a way for the user to specify "exact matches only".

It is looking to me like quotation marks are now doing one expected thing: when searching for a phrase their use appears to return only results with those words in sequence (I tried "quotation marks" in beta@).

But they don't do the other expected thing of returning only exact word matches (rather than stemmed matches).


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: Message # / permalink icon display

Nightowl >8#
 

HR Tech wrote:>>Maybe at some point the top navigation arrows can remove the message # all together as it's both there linkified and at the bottom of the page. In a book you'd have page #'s only once. But maybe there are reasons here why it's needed in both places that I'm not
recognizing.<<

In my view, the main reason that I need it to stay in the middle in Single Message view, is so we can see that it changed. That's my indicator that I actually clicked it right, or that I changed the number.

Frequently, for some reason, after about 5 arrow clicks to change pages in single view, sometimes a click won't change it, it stalls. Then I know it didn't change and click it again.

It doesn't appear in Expanded Messages view, or in Message List.

Thanks, hope that helps. I'm at this point thrilled, and breathing a sigh of relief that the Message Number issue is fixed and working for me again. It's been a really bad week, and this made my weekend to get it fixed. :)

Brenda


locked Re: Message Number Box is gone! ACK!

Nightowl >8#
 

Shal Farley wrote:Mark, The way Brenda and Sue (and Maria, IIRC) describe using the Message # search to find message content is really more of a way to scroll to a position within the Messages list. Sometimes using successive approximation to zero in on the message, when they can remember approximately when, or in the context of what other messages, the content that they're looking for may be found... So I would say this isn't really "Search" in the same sense as the regular content search. In effect it is more like being able to "skip" the page < and > (forward and back) controls by more than one page at a time, or by a fractional page at a time.<<

THANK YOU SHAL!!!!!!
I was trying so hard to explain it, and you explained it just perfectly!!!!! I was so hoping that you would weigh in on this and help it get fixed, and you have!!!

(Huge sigh of relief)
Many thanks to you and Mark,

Brenda


locked Re: Can Message #'s be listed in a smaller font next to the time of the message #suggestion

 

Thanks for fixing the message number box! I wanted to comment that I also use it frequently, whenever a lot of posts have been made in a group since I read last (so it's been every day in the Beta group for a while now). I try to minimize the number of mouse clicks I make, so when there are a lot of messages, I read them in Expanded mode, so I can just press Page Down, and occasionally click when I hit the end of a page. I do this by noting the message number I want to start with, toggling the Date sort to go to message 1, switching to Expanded mode, and entering the number to start with.

If there were some quick way to say "Show Messages in Expanded Mode in Ascending Date Order Starting With This Message", I would use that.

Thanks,

JohnF


locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

J,

What about the approximate matches?
This goes with the indexed search mechanism. One way to compensate for the lack of partial matches in the index is to index word stems, and use language-based rules (dictionaries) for transforming the search query into a word stem.

For example, I did a search on the word "disabled" and also got all
messages containing the word "disability."
You would likely have seen results for "disables", "disabling" and any other word with disable as a stem.

Even if I put it in quotation marks, I get back all the other stuff.
Here I agree with you strongly. Even if word stemming is used to improve general results, there ought to be a way for the user to specify "exact matches only".

It is looking to me like quotation marks are now doing one expected thing: when searching for a phrase their use appears to return only results with those words in sequence (I tried "quotation marks" in beta@).

But they don't do the other expected thing of returning only exact word matches (rather than stemmed matches).


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: New test/mobile version

 

J,

p.s. It's hard to understand what the problem with partial matches
could be.
Search in a system like this (built on a database) is generally based on indexes, not a direct scan of the content for each search (that would be way to slow for a large-scale system).

Why does "meeting" match in a message that says "The meeting is at 2:00"
but "meeti" not match?
So the partial match issue boils down to what's in the index. In your example having all the possible partial matches ("eeting", "meetin", "eting", "meeti", ...) would dramatically expand the size of the index and slows down the searching.

There may be a clever way to solve the problem, possibly by having a meta-index of the partials contained in indexed words, but this is really beyond my depth where database design and use are concerned. Possibly an answer lies in ElasticSearch's impenetrable documentation, but I don't envy Mark's task in trying to prise it out.


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: Can Message #'s be listed in a smaller font next to the time of the message #suggestion

Nightowl >8#
 

My Message # Box is BACK!!!!!

Thank you Shal and Mark!!!!!!!!!!

Brenda


locked Re: New website is live + reply to changes

 

J,

Also, it's a step in the right direction that the subject includes the
word "private," but I don't think that's enough. There have been many,
many occasions when despite my typing "Offlist - private" into the
title, the recipient still has no idea that the message is private
because they ignore titles and are reading the message bodies.
I think you're right. Perhaps a note inserted at the top of the body as well, something similar to the edited message notice:

[Private Message Follows]


Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked problem: edited date wipes out date posted #suggestion

 

Messages now show "edited [date]" at the bottom in the messages list. I think it's a problem that the edited date has taken the place of the originally posted date. Is it possible to show both? I know that the posted date shows up in the individual message view after the message is clicked on. But the missing posted date seems to be a lack of basic info in the message list.

BTW, I had to start a new thread for this issue, because using the search function it was not possible find the exact word I was looking for (namely, "edited") in order to conveniently include this message in the thread I wanted to include it in. Even with the word in quotes, I got back every single message containing the word "edit" (which includes every case of someone having prefaced an actual edit in the text with the word "EDIT"); every message containing the word "editing"; etc

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

It's dumb to buy smart water.


locked Re: Can Message #'s be listed in a smaller font next to the time of the message #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 2:42 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:


In the Messages View when the browser window size is 1005 or fewer pixels wide the Date sort, page number, and page < > buttons pop down onto another row - and also the Msg# box disappears altogether. When the browser window is wider all those elements appear in the same row.

Thanks Shal. That was the info I needed. Should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 


locked Re: Message # / permalink icon display

Maria
 

Also on mobile, the time or date ( and message # if it stays) would probably look better in a smaller font. And I do think it's worth trying a light grey for the time/date and moving it on it's own line or under display name ( only if light grey and smaller font). 

I just don't think it should have same weight as the message content or display name as it's secondary info you read only if you need that info. It's not central to the reading experience.

Sorry, obsessing over the visual elements on mobile ;)

Maria 

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