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moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

 

Mark,

I'd like to maintain a clear semantic and operational distinction between messages, which post to the group's archive and are sent to members in accordance to the Email Delivery and Advanced Preferences panes of their Subscription settings, and notices which do not appear in the group's archive and are sent to members based on events and other factors (including, for moderators, the Notifications pane of their Subscription).

By those definitions the existing Calendar notifications (#cal-invite, #cal-reminder, and #cal-notice) are actually messages.

  • Calendar invites. They have the hashtag #cal-invite, and the emails are sent to the group. People can mute those, and now they can also turn them into a notification. The invites still get sent to the group and still appear in the archives and people can still reply to them.

So when you say "turn them into a notification" here you mean something different - you mean make them available through the notification viewing system (web/app). Presumably they would also receive them by email unless they muted the associated hashtag.

I think this hybrid situation for calendar events (being both messages and now possibly notifications) is probably appropriate. They may be the unique example of a notification that ought to be sent to the entire membership.

  • As I add additional group notifications (like some database/file/photo changes that people have been asking for),

Wiki!

  • that means more notifications will appear in the group archives.

Or maybe not - we can argue about whether Notify Members on Upload File and those new ones ought to be treated as hybrids like the calendar events. Maybe it is time to make them notifications available to members only as an email (unless muted) or in the web/app notification viewer. Or maybe that choice is given to the group admins by allowing a new No Archive hashtag option.

Users have been able to mute hashtags since the beginning, which means no email. Now, also make it so that users can check a box to turn a hashtag into a web/app notification.

I'm not at all sold on this.

I think it may be annoying/confusing to have the notification controls lost amid the sea of message hashtags. I'd rather have the list of them in one place, one easily read list, with the checkboxes to Show in Notification and Mute in Email as columns to that list (ok, maybe also Duration for Mute). I specifically would not want to have to find and click on a button for each one among the difficult to scan hashtag tiles and go to a confirmation page just to change it, as one currently does for changing the Mute status of a hashtag. Yuck.

So, if the Hashtags page had a separate tab on it for the notification-control hashtags, and the items on that tab were presented as a list rather than an array of tiles, I'd be much happier with this.

(Someone is bound to think of it, so I'll just say it: perhaps tiles or list should be a viewing option on both tabs of this page.)

It would also be fair to say that I don't like the idea of notification controls as hashtags at all, and I'd rather see the list of them as a new tab in the Subscription page - since they are individual and not group settings. Though I do see that attraction to try and leverage the power of all those hashtag settings for notifications.

This has an advantage that people could now get notifications on any group hashtag as well.


Oh. Now I really don't like this. Unless maybe there's still the separate tab for event-driven hashtags/notifications versus ordinary message hashtags. Or a list filter at least. And the ability to view the hastags in a compact list rather than tiles.

  • I haven't thought about whether we'd need some sort of aggregation option.

I think "yes". Perhaps a control much like Email Delivery for messages, but specifically pertaining to notifications. It could go in a panel at the top of the Notifications tab of the Hashtags (or Subscription) page.

There may also be a need, at a finer level, to consolidate notifications if a person is making multiple sequential actions of the same type (like file or photo uploads).

  • I haven't thought about how to decide what appears in the new Notifications feed.


I'm confused. Isn't this whole discussion about how a user chooses what to be notified about? Or do you mean something else by "feed"?

Shal
(I may have started rambling, it is getting much too late.)


moderated Re: Include filename in subject line of upload mails #suggestion

dave w
 

Filtering works on content as well as 'Subject'.
Given that a lot of people can't restrain themselves with brevity in naming files, it may work out worse than a desirable feature.
Regards davew


moderated Re: Messages contain CC:group even with ReplyTo=sender and "Remove other options" #bug

 

Mark,


I would like to get a better idea of how serious this issue is. Which email clients do this? 
 
What Duane said. I think for Jim's use case it would suffice to remove List-Post when Remove other options is checked. Logically it makes no sense to provide the List-Post field when that is checked (and the Reply To is set to Sender).

For a group that selects Reply To Sender but allows the other option the List Post field is arguably correct, plus or minus bad boys like Thunderbird.

Shal


moderated Re: Include filename in subject line of upload mails #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 5/13/2020 21:51, Glenn Glazer wrote:
My members ask:

The current upload email subject line says:
New file uploaded to main@somegroup.groups.io
and in the body it says:
* /foo/bar/baz.pdf
Would it be possible to have an option to have the subject line say either of:
New file (/foo/bar/baz.pdf) uploaded...
/foo/bar/baz.pdf uploaded...
The idea being that members could then visually filter upload mails based on the files of interest, e.g., rosters or minutes or bylaws and so on.

Thanks,

Glenn

Not really sure how to interpret radio silence here. Mark, your thoughts would be appreciated, if only so I can provide feedback back to my members saying it was considered.

Many thanks for all you do,

Glenn

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: Formatting doesn't show headings in emails #bug

Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 08:11 PM, David Weintraub wrote:
Under the Message Formatting setting, I have Forced HTML emails checked. Should that be unchecked? 
That shouldn't matter. Uncheck "Normalize HTML Emails," if you have it checked.

Bruce


moderated Re: Messages contain CC:group even with ReplyTo=sender and "Remove other options" #bug

Duane
 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 05:07 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I would like to get a better idea of how serious this issue is. Which email clients do this?
As far as I know, only Thunderbird (TB) is a problem, but they released a patch a few years ago to restore the previous (honor Reply-To) action.  The problem is, their original change defaulted to ignore the Reply-To header when there was a List-Post header, a major change from standard practice.  Rather than revert that and make a proper fix for the problem they were trying to solve, they released the patch that requires each user to implement it if they want it.

This is related to the previous topic https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/7558487 where List-Post was added, removed, and then added back for some circumstances.  Unfortunately, I think it's that last addition that is causing a problem for Jim because his users are using the TB standard setup and haven't implemented the setting available in the patch.

Duane


moderated Re: Formatting doesn't show headings in emails #bug

David Weintraub
 

It looks like it worked in this group, but not in my other groups. The problem must be a setting I have in my other groups any idea what I should be looking for? Under the Message Formatting setting, I have Forced HTML emails checked. Should that be unchecked? 


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Duane
 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 03:20 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Please let me know what you think.
At a glance, it appears that most of this is geared toward notifications which could be enabled or disabled by each person for the web/app.  I think appending a hashtag would be cleaner than inserting some type of information, such as [PendingSub] in the subject line of the notification message (or inserting a line into the message as an explanation.)

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

 

And to add to that (as I've mentioned in the past): If and when possible, tailor each moderator's view of the activity log to match their permissions. (You could further restrict the view to their chosen notifications, but I would stick to limiting it to the permissions. That way they could still view actions in the log that they did not elect to receive notifications for.)


On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:26 PM J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I personally love the hashtag idea for this (but am not saying that you should not provide the ability for turning them off for people who don't want them).

However, I want to push here again to make notification options match permissions, even though it's somewhat of a separate issue.  For example, don't provide a #pendingsub notification option to a moderator who does not have permission to approve new members; don't provide a #pendingmessage notification option to a moderator who does not have permission to approve messages; etc. Currently, it looks like I can check those boxes in groups where I am a moderator but have limited permissions, and not those.

(Related to this, but not a notification in the strict sense, are owner messages. I can turn those on or off in any group in which I'm a moderator, but I think those should be considered permissions issued by the owner, or by a mod with permission to grant the permissions, with notification options to go along with them - in other words, as a "low-level" mod in any group I can elect to receive or not to receive owner messages, but I think that should be my choice only if I have the corresponding permission.)

In general, I want notification options to be limited to permissions.

I would also like to see a list of what will constitute a notification. Do you have any handle yet on what will be the complete list of options? Because there have been a lot of new ones requested over a span of years. In addition to files, photos, and database uploads or edits, I would like to have a notification option for the modification of a wiki page, for example.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

 

I personally love the hashtag idea for this (but am not saying that you should not provide the ability for turning them off for people who don't want them).

However, I want to push here again to make notification options match permissions, even though it's somewhat of a separate issue.  For example, don't provide a #pendingsub notification option to a moderator who does not have permission to approve new members; don't provide a #pendingmessage notification option to a moderator who does not have permission to approve messages; etc. Currently, it looks like I can check those boxes in groups where I am a moderator but have limited permissions, and not those.

(Related to this, but not a notification in the strict sense, are owner messages. I can turn those on or off in any group in which I'm a moderator, but I think those should be considered permissions issued by the owner, or by a mod with permission to grant the permissions, with notification options to go along with them - in other words, as a "low-level" mod in any group I can elect to receive or not to receive owner messages, but I think that should be my choice only if I have the corresponding permission.)

In general, I want notification options to be limited to permissions.

I would also like to see a list of what will constitute a notification. Do you have any handle yet on what will be the complete list of options? Because there have been a lot of new ones requested over a span of years. In addition to files, photos, and database uploads or edits, I would like to have a notification option for the modification of a wiki page, for example.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Bruce Bowman
 

Like many, I wasn't enamored with hashtags when I started out using groups.io. They seemed pretty superfluous.

But as I looked into them further, I came to realize that they are a very powerful feature that allows us to customize the behavior of our groups in a manner that cannot be achieved in any other way.

  • Are people receiving digests or daily summaries not getting their calendar reminders in a timely fashion? Set the Special flag on the the #cal-reminder hashtag and they go out immediately.
  • Don't want old group guidelines cluttering the message archive? Set the #guidelines topic duration to one month and after that, they disappear like magic.
  • Don't want chat notifications to go out as emails? Set the "no email" flag on the #chat hashtag.
  • Don't want regular subscribers sending administrative notices? Set up an #admin hashtag that's usable only by moderators.
  • Want to initiate a polarizing discussion and moderate the responses? Add a hashtag with the "moderate" flag set.
  • Want to force people to reply directly to you, overriding the group setting? Set up a hashtag with "reply only to sender" and groups.io will block attempts to do otherwise.
I do understand why folks wouldn't want their group to become a hashtag-fest...I don't either...but you don't have to let subscribers create them.

Oh well. I'm running out of steam, and not entirely sure where I was going with this. I guess I'll close with the suggestion that those who are looking for a listserv-type experience could just turn off the calendar, polls, and chats. 

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Messages contain CC:group even with ReplyTo=sender and "Remove other options" #bug

 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:04 PM Jim Avera <jim.avera@...> wrote:

I hate to bug you but is a fix for this coming soon?

We've had to stop allowing direct (un-moderated) by anyone because many mail readers present "reply to list" as the default action, and the resulting junk messages have caused a few members to un-subscribe in disgust. 


I would like to get a better idea of how serious this issue is. Which email clients do this? 

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Messages contain CC:group even with ReplyTo=sender and "Remove other options" #bug

Jim Avera
 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 07:40 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
If your members are doing something 'wrong' out of habit, isn't a bit of education required?
Sigh.  Trying to improve everyone else's habits is a fool's errand, and rarely worth the social cost.

GIO's "Remove other Reply Options" would obviate the issue, but doesn't work because hidden headers make MUAs put those undesired reply options back in.  

This is a software problem which can be fixed; fixing people is much harder.


moderated Google Drive Integration #bug

Kevin Utzy
 

One of the features I had planned on using when using Groups.io was the Google Drive integration.  This would allow us to integrate the files we have on our Website with Groups.io.  However there is a noticed that there was a message referring to the fact that Google had changed their API.  I asked the managers forum and was informed that has been down for about a year.  Obviously I was very disappointed and I don't want to take back to our membership.If they changed their API, though not technical in this area, but I know should be something that could be fixed.  

I was wondering if there plans for fix this integration or is their any other ability to integrate with Google drive or even a WordPress based website?

Thank you.

Kevin Utzy



moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Glenn Glazer
 

On 5/18/2020 13:42, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:28 PM Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:
Can we optionally turn these off? For many of us hashtags are just
superfluous fluff at the end of message subjects. I can filter things
with my email filters, I don't need hashtags as well.

There are currently no plans to add the ability to turn off hashtags.

Mark 

Understood, but if there are plans, please count this as another vote for turning off hashtags.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Donald Hellen
 

Mark . . .

On Mon, 18 May 2020 13:20:06 -0700, "Mark Fletcher"
<markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


- Every notification gets a hashtag. This is already the case with #cal-invite and a few others, but, for example, the moderator notifications don't currently have associated hashtags.
- Users have been able to mute hashtags since the beginning, which means no email. Now, also make it so that users can check a box to turn a hashtag into a web/app notification.
I don't know what the fascination is with hashtags, but let's not
force it upon everyone just because some people like them. If I
misunderstood your post and it's an optional opt-in sort of thing,
then I doubt my members (many older ones) would have any problems if
it doesn't happen in their groups.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM
https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Steph Mathews
 

No hashtags please?  Thanks!

 

Have a blessed day!  Steph

 

From: Mark Fletcher
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] New notifications proposal #misc

 

Hi All,

I've started working on notifications again. I had not been very happy with my last proposal, from before the Yahoo Groups apocalypse. I think I've come up with a better solution. Please let me know what you think of this:

  • Every notification gets a hashtag. This is already the case with #cal-invite and a few others, but, for example, the moderator notifications don't currently have associated hashtags.
  • Users have been able to mute hashtags since the beginning, which means no email. Now, also make it so that users can check a box to turn a hashtag into a web/app notification.

So, walking through a few examples:

  • Pending subscriber notification. It's currently an email sent to individual moderators, controlled by an option on your subscription. It gets a hashtag, say #pendingsub. Now, moderators can mute that and/or turn it into a web/app notification (and the option on your subscription goes away).
  • Calendar invites. They have the hashtag #cal-invite, and the emails are sent to the group. People can mute those, and now they can also turn them into a notification. The invites still get sent to the group and still appear in the archives and people can still reply to them.
  • Chat messages. These don't currently have any notifications. So, a new hashtag would (perhaps) be #chatmsgs. It would be an email sent to people who are subscribed to a chat and who are not currently logged into the chat when the message was sent. People could instead/in addition to turn it into a notification.

This has an advantage that people could now get notifications on any group hashtag as well.

I would modify the existing Hashtags group sidebar to add the ability to turn on/off notifications.

Some notes:

  • As I add additional group notifications (like some database/file/photo changes that people have been asking for), that means more notifications will appear in the group archives.
  • I haven't thought about whether we'd need some sort of aggregation option.
  • I haven't thought about how to decide what appears in the new Notifications feed.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks, Mark

 


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Robert Oshel
 

I agree with Dave.  Let us avoid hashtags if we don't want them.

  Bob


On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 4:28 PM Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:
Can we optionally turn these off? For many of us hashtags are just
superfluous fluff at the end of message subjects. I can filter things
with my email filters, I don't need hashtags as well.

Dave

On 18 May 2020 at 13:20, Mark Fletcher wrote:

> - Every notification gets a hashtag.


http://davesergeant.com





moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

 

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:28 PM Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:
Can we optionally turn these off? For many of us hashtags are just
superfluous fluff at the end of message subjects. I can filter things
with my email filters, I don't need hashtags as well.

There are currently no plans to add the ability to turn off hashtags.

Mark 


moderated Re: New notifications proposal #misc

Dave Sergeant
 

Can we optionally turn these off? For many of us hashtags are just
superfluous fluff at the end of message subjects. I can filter things
with my email filters, I don't need hashtags as well.

Dave

On 18 May 2020 at 13:20, Mark Fletcher wrote:

- Every notification gets a hashtag.

http://davesergeant.com