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moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

I like this a lot. A couple of points:

(1) Following Only needs to specify that they also receive Special Notices
(2) Digests and Daily Summary need to clarify that Special Notices are still sent as individual emails
(3) You would still need to deal with the issue someone here brought up (I think it was Andy?) of setting these options in a different place. Would need coordination, clarity, and the fix there as well as here.

But overall, great job!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Christos,

I cannot think of a more sure way to make owners and moderators of “simple” groups that focus on limited subjects tear their hair out than to do this.  If an owner or moderator wants to make a full time job (unpaid) of managing their group(s), this would immediately and irreversibly do that!

My people (and I) could care less about most of the almost infinite complications interminably discussed on GMF, and I have no intention whatsoever of letting that genie out of the bottle.  To my knowledge, nothing would keep them from joining [beta].

We are an aircraft technical group, not a “group management” group.  Anyone who wants to can join or quit and contribute or not as they see fit.  Over twenty years, only one person has been thrown out.

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

That said, every group has its own reasons to exist.  I fully understand that one size DOES NOT “fit all”.  But I would strenuously object if notification to “...all types of new GIO account users…” were automatically incorporated as it would raise issues in my groups I would much prefer remain “sleeping dogs”.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos
_._,_._,_


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

OK all, on the subject of reconsidering the page layout while at it, (which would also fix the OP issue), I took the suggestions brought up so far, twisted them a bit, and came up with a "new-and-improved" proposal. (see attached)

What I like it about it -if you look at it closely- is that no setting (and its current meaning) is changed (except for some help blurb minor changes), it's the same exact functionality of the current screen, just presented a bit differently; what changes is some of the settings are now strategically rearranged so the delivery material (what/which) goes at the top now, and the delivery method (how) goes below it.  The flow now changes to a simpler "send me nothing, or send me [everything/someofit...] using [individual/enhanced-digest/plain-digest/daily-summary] emails and limit its size to [maxsize] if necessary."  I think it gives the delivery panel a logical and straightforward, easy to follow & understand workflow (provided we caption it optimally), and also addresses the issues brought forward:

- Cleaner/streamlined message delivery section, no more need for separate Delivery and AdvPrefs panels & expanding/collapsing/hiding, moving things around, etc.
- The MaxAttachment setting is no longer the forgotten toy in the back of the closet.
- No more nonsensical/invalid combinations presented in the screen, it's very clear what happens.
- Mostly self-explanatory, and because only the really-important parts of that big light-blue note are used, the note can be done away with since the rest of its current text is now visually "told" (shown) in the new layout and text changes, hence cleaner more compact screen look.
- I would think the (initial) user shock would be little, gone soon; heck, some may think Cool! My account was enhanced with new options.
- No code/UI change needed in the multi-group-select -> Actions menu. (unless if we wanted to add the FO option(s) there)
- No code/UI change needed in the Admin -> MemberList-multicheck -> SetEmailDelivery dialog.  (unless if we wanted to add the FO option(s) there, but I'd think only the user themselves should set FO on their account, I assumed that's what we would want)
- I don't see any downstream emailing selector code needing to change because the underlying current structure (and routing logic) doesn't change.
- reMarkably, the only work required would be mostly screen UI work, with some minor code work to account for the disable/grey-out/possibly-clear radio+options combos; I don't think any screen logic code would need to change because the settings still mean and do exactly what they did before.
- And as an after-effect, this proposal also exposes the FO options in plain view in the forefront, so it can encourage/promote FO usage.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

Duane
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 03:27 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?
I've had the following wording in all of my groups Welcome message since June 1, 2020:
There's a manual available for members to learn more about how the site works at https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual.  There is a PDF version that can be downloaded.

I also include a blurb about it at the bottom of the Guidelines that go out monthly and have a sticky topic on each group.  It doesn't appear to help much, but at least it's readily available.

Duane


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

The text says that. The labels themselves could be changed as I suggested earlier. 

If you think it’s a mountain out of a molehill then you stand nothing to gain or lose by the suggested change and it’s hard to see why you fight it so continuously.


On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 04:47 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would actually rephrase that: it will not work the way *any* user expects. If you set yourself to Following Only after setting yourself to Special Notices Only, you would expect to receive messages from topics you're following. I can't imagine anyone expecting otherwise.
The Advanced Preferences note clearly states that they do not apply if Special Notices Only is set so I fail to see what the real problem is.  It doesn't matter what your members think they will get, it does what it says and that's what matters. I this topic is making a mountain out of mole hill.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: #bug First attachment doesn't show up in new topic #bug

Bob Bellizzi
 

File size does matter.
It gives you a chance to hit buttons that are supposedly inactive but are actually active.
One should wait till an image of the file appears in the big box before clicking the Add button.
That's supposed to give you a chance to view the file a bit and be able to kill the upload if it really isn't the one you want.

I can pretty well guarantee that lots of systems puke when you start pushing controls in the middle of operations.
Maybe they shouldn't but patience is a virtue.  
Systems typically give you some kind of indication when a very lengthy operation is completed successfully. Hitting buttons prior to that is asking for trouble
Bob
--

Bob Bellizzi


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 04:47 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would actually rephrase that: it will not work the way *any* user expects. If you set yourself to Following Only after setting yourself to Special Notices Only, you would expect to receive messages from topics you're following. I can't imagine anyone expecting otherwise.
The Advanced Preferences note clearly states that they do not apply if Special Notices Only is set so I fail to see what the real problem is.  It doesn't matter what your members think they will get, it does what it says and that's what matters. I this topic is making a mountain out of mole hill.

Andy


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

>>> Yes, the help pages are great. But they have their place. And their place is not to prevent mishaps or bad combinations of settings that can and should be prevented by the UI.


Definitely, nobody (even me) is arguing that; the point of my topic was to increase visibility to the water bowl, even if we can't make them drink any; at least this way they cannot claim or blame us for not letting them know where to have a sip of water.

Cheers,
Christos



moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 01:27 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
send a separate Welcome message (once)
I think a second welcome message separate from one the group they're joining sends out just looks like more spam to new users. But groups could include links to the help page in their own welcome messages. I will amend ours to include that. That said, people tend to ignore welcome messages; they even ignore the group guidelines when they get them. It's like "bla bla bla" with not even a "do you agree to this" click. The vast majority of my group members don't read the guidelines, even though we say right at the top stuff like "please read, our guidelines are stricter than in many other groups, failure to abide by them might result in removal." It's all like that cartoon about the dog Ginger. What we say to dogs: "Stay out of the trash, Ginger! Ginger, I told you a million times, stay out of the trash!" What they hear: "Bla bla, Ginger! Ginger, bla bla!"

Yes, the help pages are great. But they have their place. And their place is not to prevent mishaps or bad combinations of settings that can and should be prevented by the UI.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: #bug First attachment doesn't show up in new topic #bug

Joanie
 

I can reproduce the problem fairly consistently with these steps

1. select and add the file
2. if it shows up under the message text box, the remove it and go back to 1

Just repeat that loop for a few times, the longest it took for me was 3 times. file size does not matter.

when the file does not show up, I have tried a few things

- press the refresh circle on the browser to refresh the page with no effect
- waiting for a long time, minimize and maximize the browser, switching browser tabs has no effect
- if you don't see the file below the message text box and then send it, then you will see the file in the sent message


moderated Re: #bug First attachment doesn't show up in new topic #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 07:58 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
I just tried an 11.97 megabyte file and, while it took a bit of time to show up in the big selection box it finally did.
An observation that might well provide a clue about the problem. I suspect that seeing this effect depends on two components: (a) the file size, and (b) the individual user's internet upload speed.

Unless I am much mistaken everything typed in a composition window is sent to Groups.io in real time, and what the sender sees is what has arrived at Groups.io, so that on completion all Groups.io has to do is act on the "reply" click. Now if something that is "typed" is a large attachment, Groups.io cannot acknowledge it immediately by announcing under the comp window, so a large attached file and a slow upload speed (for an undefined value of "slow") may mean that it will take several seconds (or in the worst case tens of seconds) for the attachment to be uploaded so the Groups.io can record its arrival.

Chris  


moderated Re: #bug First attachment doesn't show up in new topic #bug

Bob Bellizzi
 

I just tried an 11.97 megabyte file and, while it took a bit of time to show up in the big selection box it finally did.
I then clicked Add and again it took a bit of time but made finally made it and returned me to the text box and the filename was showing below the text box.
That was all  on this message but then I deleted the file from the message.
It was an old 4 page newsletter pdf from a Word mailmerge to about 1000 people.
One of the biggest text type files I ever produced.

BUT IT ALL WORKED OK!
--

Bob Bellizzi


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:51 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
Disable the Advanced Preferences block (hide it) if either "Special Notices" or "No Email" is selected.
This is creeping up on the solution but what if the member has already selected Following Only first? I think the two settings need to be coordinated in some way. I've suggested some ways, Shal has suggested some.

I do feel the assertion that this is a "serious problem" could be something of an overstatement.
Sure, skip the adjective. "It's a problem" is fine. You might describe it as "serious" if you had new group members continually falling into the trap and having to worry that they're not getting messages and not know it. Or maybe you wouldn't...
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

Bruce Bowman
 

My vote:

-- Pull Max Attachment Size out of the Advanced Preferences block and put it somewhere else.
-- Disable the Advanced Preferences block (hide it) if either "Special Notices" or "No Email" is selected.

This seems to achieve the majority of stated objectives while at the same time complying with the "principle of least astonishment" for those who may have already become accustomed to the current subscription settings layout and message delivery behavior.

I do feel the assertion that this is a "serious problem" could be something of an overstatement. 

Regards,
Bruce


moderated #bug in Advanced Preferences on member page #bug

Duane
 

While looking over some things for another topic, I noticed that in the Advanced Preferences panel of a member page, the blue box says, "Note: The preferences below do not apply if you select either Special Notices Only in the Email Delivery panel above."  It's missing the "or No Email" part.  Checking further, this only happens on a group with No Email disabled.  While technically correct, it reads strangely.  Removing the word "either" should allow it to read properly for either situation.

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:18 AM, Duane wrote:
that may be because I've been along for the entire ride.
Exactly. This has been an issue mostly with new members in my group. And I've had to personally explain it to them and/or simply fix their settings. NOBODY gets it at the beginnng. If the UI doesn't explicitly rule out the combo, it should at least make the situation much clearer by changing the names on the page. I called this a UI bug at the beginning of this thead, because the UI fails to rule out something that gets members into trouble, instead counting on the members manual or some secondary explanations to stop the problem. It doesn't.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

Duane
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:47 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would actually rephrase that: it will not work the way *any* user expects.
Actually, it does work the way I expect it to, but that may be because I've been along for the entire ride.

Duane


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

Peter Cook
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 12:45 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
the Members Manual makes it clear that "Special Notices Only" means Special Notices Only
Absolutely. But when the UI design leads to a user thinking things operate differently than they actually do, the manual doesn't help.


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

Especially not new members initially setting up their membership.

And I don’t want the smaller problem of Ayto-follow Replies without having Following Only set to get lost in the mire. While not as serious, it also  needs to be fixed. Fixing the larger problem would fix that as well. But it could also be fixed on its own.


On Jan 24, 2021, at 10:02 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Great. Kudos to the members manual and Nina! Even better to change the wording on the actual UI. And better yet for  the UI (not just the internals) to bear that out. No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.


On Jan 24, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 05:26 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Change "Special Notices Only" to "No messages except Special Notices"
Change "Following Only" to "No messages except Special Notices and messages from topics I'm following"
It is perhaps worth noting that the Members Manual makes it clear that "Special Notices Only" means Special Notices Only and that opening Advanced Preferences on a subscriber's Subscription Settings page reveals a clear notification that (inter alia) The preferences below do not apply if you select either Special Notices Only or No Email in the Email Delivery panel above.

Chris
       

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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