Date   

locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

'most people should not use this feature'
That's for sure. But they will, and they do. You've got to be kidding.
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2016, at 11:57 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

I think most people will have no idea what is meant by 'if the email
service you use' bla bla.
Perhaps. But then most people should not use this feature.

Hopefully a better name and description will discourage people from making incorrect inferences about what the feature might do for them.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

Shal,
I give up. This member CC'd his questionnaire response to his (or her) alias address. He (or she) clearly intends, or thinks it to be, an address at which he (or she) can receive Groups.op correspondence. And 'all of that' (not being able to reach him etc) is NOT true failing an alias. The context is very different if the member BELIEVES he is logged in to an address where he can safely receive Groups.io communication. Not sure what else I can say to get you to understand, so at this point we will have to agree to disagree.
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2016, at 11:44 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

They may say to themselves, "Well, I never use email for these
groups anyway. All I plan to do is use the web." In that case, they
will not receive owner messages or special notices, both of which I
consider crucial. AND THEY WON'T KNOW IT.
All of that is just as true whether or not they set up an alias.

Too, the special notices at least they'll see on the web site. Likewise any admin messages you might schedule via the event calendar.

I have a group member right now in that situation. I believe the
member used someone else's email address to apply to the group. They
received our pending member questionnaire and they actually cc'd the
email address that they later (after acceptance) created as their
alias. I believe this member uses only the alias email and doesn't
care. They do everything via the web.
You believe this member uses only the alias email, but perhaps he/she doesn't use it either.

The bigger picture here is that this extra attempt to communicate with a possibly confused member is not IMO a sufficient reason to make a major functionality change and incur the problems that would ensue if Groups.io were to start sending anything to the Email Alias addresses.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

J,

I think most people will have no idea what is meant by 'if the email
service you use' bla bla.
Perhaps. But then most people should not use this feature.

Hopefully a better name and description will discourage people from making incorrect inferences about what the feature might do for them.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

J,

They may say to themselves, "Well, I never use email for these
groups anyway. All I plan to do is use the web." In that case, they
will not receive owner messages or special notices, both of which I
consider crucial. AND THEY WON'T KNOW IT.
All of that is just as true whether or not they set up an alias.

Too, the special notices at least they'll see on the web site. Likewise any admin messages you might schedule via the event calendar.

I have a group member right now in that situation. I believe the
member used someone else's email address to apply to the group. They
received our pending member questionnaire and they actually cc'd the
email address that they later (after acceptance) created as their
alias. I believe this member uses only the alias email and doesn't
care. They do everything via the web.
You believe this member uses only the alias email, but perhaps he/she doesn't use it either.

The bigger picture here is that this extra attempt to communicate with a possibly confused member is not IMO a sufficient reason to make a major functionality change and incur the problems that would ensue if Groups.io were to start sending anything to the Email Alias addresses.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

I think most people will have no idea what is meant by 'if the email service you use' bla bla.
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:53 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Maria,

"Alternate email address that you send messages from. No email
messages or notifications are sent to this address."
I'd avoid using the word "alternate" as that would make me think -
"Oh I also have a yahoo email in addition to my gmail..."
The first sentence is what's already there, but it could probably be improved too.

"If the email address you use for this subscription has an alias,
please enter it here so that you may send posts to the group via
email from that alias as well.
This misses the mark, at least for the primary use case. Those members can't send from the alias email "as well" - they perforce can send only from that address. Perhaps something more like:

"Posting Alias

If the email service you use for this subscription sends your
outgoing messages from a different address than your subscription
address, please enter your sending address here. No email messages
or notifications are sent to this address."

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

Maria,

"Alternate email address that you send messages from. No email
messages or notifications are sent to this address."
I'd avoid using the word "alternate" as that would make me think -
"Oh I also have a yahoo email in addition to my gmail..."
The first sentence is what's already there, but it could probably be improved too.

"If the email address you use for this subscription has an alias,
please enter it here so that you may send posts to the group via
email from that alias as well.
This misses the mark, at least for the primary use case. Those members can't send from the alias email "as well" - they perforce can send only from that address. Perhaps something more like:

"Posting Alias

If the email service you use for this subscription sends your
outgoing messages from a different address than your subscription
address, please enter your sending address here. No email messages
or notifications are sent to this address."

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

"They received our pending member questionnaire and they actually cc'd the email address that they later (after acceptance) created as their alias."

meaning: they cc'd their reply to the alias address. Do you start to see what I mean?

J

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:38 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Shal,

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:31 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

I would think the lack of messages at the alias address would tell the members pretty quickly that things don't work that way.

As Wayne pointed out, they can access messages via the web. 

Looked at another way, if the member isn't paying attention to their subscribed address you have exactly the same problem with that member whether or not they have an alias address.

Sort of. I'd thought of that. But it's not exactly the same, especially if the member is not aware of what they're missing. EVEN if we try to hit them over the head with the fact, when they create an alias, that they won't get any Groups.io messages at the alias address, they may not care. They may say to themselves, "Well, I never use email for these groups anyway. All I plan to do is use the web." In that case, they will not receive owner messages or special notices, both of which I consider crucial. AND THEY WON'T KNOW IT.

As for my "supposition" that members may log on only to their alias address, it is not a supposition. As I've tried to explain, I have a group member right now in that situation. I believe the member used someone else's email address to apply to the group. They received our pending member questionnaire and they actually cc'd the email address that they later (after acceptance) created as their alias. I believe this member uses only the alias email and doesn't care. They do everything via the web.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

Shal,

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:31 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

I would think the lack of messages at the alias address would tell the members pretty quickly that things don't work that way.

As Wayne pointed out, they can access messages via the web. 

Looked at another way, if the member isn't paying attention to their subscribed address you have exactly the same problem with that member whether or not they have an alias address.

Sort of. I'd thought of that. But it's not exactly the same, especially if the member is not aware of what they're missing. EVEN if we try to hit them over the head with the fact, when they create an alias, that they won't get any Groups.io messages at the alias address, they may not care. They may say to themselves, "Well, I never use email for these groups anyway. All I plan to do is use the web." In that case, they will not receive owner messages or special notices, both of which I consider crucial. AND THEY WON'T KNOW IT.

As for my "supposition" that members may log on only to their alias address, it is not a supposition. As I've tried to explain, I have a group member right now in that situation. I believe the member used someone else's email address to apply to the group. They received our pending member questionnaire and they actually cc'd the email address that they later (after acceptance) created as their alias. I believe this member uses only the alias email and doesn't care. They do everything via the web.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

J,

There is no receiving side.
Exactly. That's my problem with it. You can't prevent a user from
joining, immediately setting up an alias, and from then on, only
accessing their alias email address and therefore never receiving
owner or special notice messages.
Or group messages either. It does them no good to access their alias email address - at least not as far as Groups.io is concerned: nothing is sent there. I don't understand your supposition that the members would be looking only there - I would think the lack of messages at the alias address would tell the members pretty quickly that things don't work that way.

Looked at another way, if the member isn't paying attention to their subscribed address you have exactly the same problem with that member whether or not they have an alias address. Immediately, Previously, or Later, it matters not a bit when or whether that member set up an Alias Email.

Yet they have complete access to the group.
Via the web, yes. Again, that has nothing to do with the existence of an alias email.

My group does have a rule that failure to respond to an owner email
regarding individual issues is considered grounds from removal. Yet
reaching them *in the first place* for them to even KNOW that
attempts are being made to contact them is the problem if they're
doing this.
Doing what? Ignoring their subscribed email address? That may be a problem, but it is a problem that has nothing to do with the Alias Email feature.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

They go online.
Yes, yes, yes. I know the alias is "only for sending." And that's the problem. I think it creates a giant loophole, a communication gap.
But I'm starting to repeat myself.
J

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:04 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

>
> only accessing their alias email address
>

In that case, they wouldn't be able to read any posts unless they go online.  The alias is ONLY for sending information TO the group.

Duane





--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

Duane
 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:04 pm, J_Catlady wrote:


only accessing their alias email address
In that case, they wouldn't be able to read any posts unless they go online. The alias is ONLY for sending information TO the group.

Duane


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 07:40 pm, HR Tech wrote:
Please note: aliases can send but cannot receive group mail. Please be sure to check your primary email inbox for group emails."

It still leaves emails from the group owner out of the loop. Members have a motivation to receive "group emails." But they have no particular interest in receiving owner emails, in general.So I don't think this is sufficient to motivate what we (or at least I, in particular) would require, namely, the assurance that owner emails and other important notifications hit their mark. 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

Maria
 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:03 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
For this I think the education has to come from the account page itself. An additional sentence in the description might do the trick:

"Alternate email address that you send messages from. No email messages
or notifications are sent to this address."

I'd avoid using the word "alternate" as that would make me think - "Oh I also have a yahoo email in addition to my gmail..." whereas this is meant to help wit the gmail/googlemail or the jane.smith/ janesmith @ gmail type situation only, right? So maybe instead of saying "alternate" its could say:

"If the email address you use for this subscription has an alias, please enter it here so that you may send posts to the group via email from that alias as well. Please note: aliases can send but cannot receive group mail. Please be sure to check your primary email inbox for group emails."

Maria


locked Re: Chat now live for beta groups

Maria
 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 01:47 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Also, suggestions for a new icon would be appreciated (if you don't like the teletype that's there now, that is).

Tricky one! We can't really have anything with speech bubbles as then it's too similar to messages... but all chat related apps use those speech bubbles in one form or the other ( oval/ rectangle). And it would probably be too confusing to have a variation of those with three dots inside. Maybe just one speech bubble with three dots... like the "commenting-o" icon? Probably not great. 

We may need someone to design a groups.io ghost :) 

We can probably live with the teletype for now.

Maria


locked Re: Chat now live for beta groups

Maria
 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 01:47 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
If you have joined a chat and wish to leave it, type in /leave in the message window.

This should probably be a button -  or there should be instructions outside the chat window explaining how to leave a chat.

Maria


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:03 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
For this I think the education has to come from the account page itself. An additional sentence in the description might do the trick:

"Alternate email address that you send messages from. No email messages
or notifications are sent to this address."

I don't think that's going to be very successful. Most people will remain blissfully unaware of what the hell this is even talking about, or if they do, they won't care. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 05:24 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
There is no receiving side.

 Exactly. That's my problem with it. You can't prevent a user from joining, immediately setting up an alias, and from then on, only accessing their alias email address and therefore never receiving owner or special notice messages. Yet they have complete access to the group. My group does have a rule that failure to respond to an owner email regarding individual issues is considered grounds from removal. Yet reaching them *in the first place* for them to even KNOW that attempts are being made to contact them is the problem if they're doing this.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

J,

In other words: you can't educate them if you can't reach them.
For this I think the education has to come from the account page itself. An additional sentence in the description might do the trick:

"Alternate email address that you send messages from. No email messages
or notifications are sent to this address."

--
Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

Maria,

My advice would be to better explain the role/ purpose of adding an
alias so the user only adds one if absolutely necessary.
I would agree with this. It could be helped by choosing a more explicit name for the option, and/or enhancing the descriptive text.

One thought I had was to rename it one's "Posting Alias" to help reinforce the idea that it is for sending only.

I think it needs to be remain send only otherwise it's essentially a
duplicate subscription and will drive people nuts as well as be
tricky on owner end to regulate.
I agree with this too. That form of usage would be better served by a mechanism that allows managing multiple subscription addresses.

--
Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: option to disable email aliases #suggestion

 

J,

So bottom line,I think any alias should (a) be confirmed,
In the intended use case, (1) from my prior message, it is impossible for the user to confirm the alias address - their service does not accept messages there -- the user could never receive the confirmation request.

In case (2) confirmation is unnecessary if nothing is ever sent to that address.

(b) receive cc's of any owner correspondence and special notices,
Again, an impossibility for (1), and IMO undesirable for (2).

and (c) checked against the no-fly (banned) list.
That one's a maybe, IMO.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

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