Date   

moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic? BV

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

           No matter which way you decide to go you are going to get howls of protest from one quarter or another.

           Speaking for myself and those who think like I do:

  1. You should nuke that code.  On a web interface in particular no one would ever expect that if they've done a reply to a message in an existing thread in topics view, even if they tweaked the subject in some way, that it would not remain a part of the thread in which that reply is being made.   I have never had a web forums interface, and that's what I consider the Groups.io web interface to be, ever split a thread, period.   The user must make the explicit decision, followed by the effort necessary to hit the "New Topic" button, to create a new thread.  If context needs to be borrowed from an existing thread that is done via copy and paste, not by relying on being able to hit "reply" in an existing thread, changing the subject, and then editing down the existing message material to retain the context one wishes to maintain.
  2. By extension, I firmly believe that this should be extended to how the e-mail interface works, too.  An announcement, perhaps repeated announcements, would be needed ahead of the actual implementation.   I can see no reason why the same explicit kind of "new thread creation" decision making should not be built-in to the e-mail side of the world just like it is (or we thought it was) on the web side.  If you want to create a new thread you should have to create a brand new message addressed to the posting address for a given group, with a new title (even if that title includes a "was: blah blah blah"), and with the intentional transfer of content, if any, from the old thread that served as its genesis.   This is precisely how entirely new topics get introduced when that's the intent, so no one can say that this is something they cannot understand if they've been something other than a lurker or a "reply only" participant.  It makes the user consider what they're intending to do before they actually do it, and that always tends to be for the good overall (particularly since it can sometimes give people a chance to reconsider something).


With regard to your question regarding manual changes to a subject on an existing thread by an owner or moderator, I believe you are correct that each and every existing message in the thread (and, in this case, the archive since the web interface is the only place I know of that one can retitle existing topics) should have its subject changed.  If you were to implement the "ironclad" header threading discussed above, this would allow for mixed titles in a topic to occur, but that's probably not going to happen often nor be a problem.  If an owner/moderator is retitling a thread it's because they feel that, to use a metaphor, "the drapes don't match the rug," and the intent is to get a match.  This is particularly important when an existing thread is being split.  One would want the new title of each thread created from the messages in a single existing one to have the same title as "message one" in each new one.  From what I've seen this process occurs already automatically in the case of a thread merge.  The thread being merged always has its message subjects changed to the same one as the thread that it's being merged into.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic? BV

 

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Clearly, my assertion that "one must hit 'New Topic' to create a new topic" in the web interface is completely wrong.  I am actually rather shocked that my "subject change" tweak did, indeed, start a brand new topic/thread.

Heh, me too, and I wrote the code....

So, I did put code in a long time ago that looks at subjects and sets a new thread if the subject has been changed even if there are references to an existing thread in the message header. Should I nuke this code? I'm thinking I should nuke this code.

Related question: also as part of that code, if the subject of the thread has been changed (say by editing the thread on the website), we re-write the subject line of the message with the changed subject of the thread. Keep that? I'm inclined to say yes, to be consistent with the fact that when someone edits the subject of a thread on the website, we go into the archives and re-write the subject line of all the existing messages. 

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic? BV

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Clearly, my assertion that "one must hit 'New Topic' to create a new topic" in the web interface is completely wrong.  I am actually rather shocked that my "subject change" tweak did, indeed, start a brand new topic/thread.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic? BV

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 01:48 pm, ro-esp wrote:

 If we were using header threading as "ironclad,"
What do you mean by "ironclad" here?

Ronaldo,

           By "ironclad" I mean that if the content is available in the message header to thread into an existing thread, that would take precedence over all else, including a modified subject.

           That kind of threading is indeed used and really doesn't take that much getting used to.  Users figure out very quickly (and, of course, are also told) that if they want to create a new thread they must create a brand new message in their e-mail client in order to do so.  This is really no different than that happens in the web interface, as one must hit "New Topic" to create a new topic.

            I am going to intentionally add "BV" to the end of the subject on this message itself.  I believe I recall having done something like this accidentally at one point using the web interface, as I am now, and that it does not cause a new thread to be created, but this message will simply be the next in the series even with a changed title.

            If that turns out not to be the case then at least the behavior is consistent as far as what happens if any subject change is made and I apologize in advance for thread splitting.  It is perfectly OK to merge this back into the original thread if it doesn't stay there on its own.

            I've used a number of e-mail clients over the years that completely ignored the subject of a message in terms of threading a conversation if the header information indicated it was in reply to a message in an existing conversation thread.  It's really a matter of what choice you want your threading algorithm to make. 
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 04:22 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
HTML messages contain both a plain text and HTML part. For these messages,
we only insert the footer into the HTML part, because that's what 99.99% of
people are shown when they view the messages.
You already have the capability of adding footers to text-only messages, so I suggest adding them to the text part of HTML messages as well. Some may be using that because they don't like the different fonts that different people choose in HTML mode.

JohnF


moderated Activities delete

goran@...
 

It would be great to have the possibility to delete activities. Is this doable?

Regards
Göran

Skickat från BlueMail


moderated Re: Move photos between albums

Anita L
 

I would like this to be fixed as well.
 
I am not very happy right now with iogroups. There are too many things not working for me. I wrote you Mark and hope you will answer me about my issues. I really would like to stay here but unless these things will be fixed I don't see my group staying.
 
Anita
 
 
 
 
Thanks so much Mark. Just knowing that you listen to us when we have an issue makes IO groups a wonderful place to be.

We asked the folks in our group how they were liking it here. We've been here about a month now. 
Those that put up the biggest fight about moving here are now the ones who are now saying that IO Groups is 1000 times better then Yahoo. 

I cant tell you how much easier my life has been as a group owner since moving here. 

Tami Davis


There is currently no way to move photos between albums. I've added it to the TODO list but I do not know when it will be implemented.

Cheers,
Mark 


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Jim Fisher <ejf@...> wrote:
Yes, your signature is back, but, using my email client and reading in plain
text, I still see no group footers much of the time.

HTML messages contain both a plain text and HTML part. For these messages, we only insert the footer into the HTML part, because that's what 99.99% of people are shown when they view the messages. It sounds like you're forcing your email client to show you the plain text part instead of the HTML part, which is why you're not seeing the footers.

Hope this helps.
Mark


moderated Re: Move photos between albums

Tami D <artfulmuze@...>
 

Thanks so much Mark. Just knowing that you listen to us when we have an issue makes IO groups a wonderful place to be.

We asked the folks in our group how they were liking it here. We've been here about a month now. 
Those that put up the biggest fight about moving here are now the ones who are now saying that IO Groups is 1000 times better then Yahoo. 

I cant tell you how much easier my life has been as a group owner since moving here. 

Tami Davis


There is currently no way to move photos between albums. I've added it to the TODO list but I do not know when it will be implemented.

Cheers,
Mark 


moderated Re: Getting rid of full page refresh after choosing "Start Merge" #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Bless you, Mark!   This makes archive cleanup significantly easier than it would have been otherwise.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: www.groups.io web page

Duane
 

Font-awesome is all (?) the little icons that are used on the site - http://fontawesome.io/cheatsheet/

Duane


moderated Re: www.groups.io web page

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 01:46 pm, Richard Kenyon(h) wrote:
/font-awesome/

There is actually such a font?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Getting rid of full page refresh after choosing "Start Merge" #suggestion

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

A slight addendum that might, or might not, make this an easier issue to fix.

It is not the page refresh, per se, that is "the problem" here.  It is the fact that you are repositioned back to the top of the page after the refresh is complete rather than landing back where you were, or awfully near to that.  

Now when you start a merge or do one of the other operations in the drop down (lock a thread/etc), we return you to the same page and point where you just were and also highlight the topic you were operating on.

Cheers,
Mark


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

Yes, your signature is back, but, using my email client and reading in plain
text, I still see no group footers much of the time. I get the impression I
only see them when the sender is also using an email client, not when messages
are sent from the web site. It doesn't bother me, because I've never needed to
use them anyway, but I thought Mark might be interested in this apparent
remaining bug. I've just checked, and find if I view the message in HTML mode
then the footers appear, but not in my preferred plain text mode.

Jim Fisher

On 9 Jan 2017 at 14:42, Brian Vogel wrote:

Actually, Ro, a wiki is not "just files" in any conventional sense.  Wikipedia
is the best known wiki, and the biggest difference is that anyone can edit the
content (though group wikis are restricted, usually, to group members).  File
repositories, while allowing vetted contributions from virtually anyone, are
under far tighter control.  Often, as a result, those who might know more about
something or know about something the vetter does not end up being stonewalled.
 Conversely, wikis can end up full of pure garbage if someone isn't paying
attention who at least has a good nose for unfounded speculation or incorrect
information.

As an observation from my side, I can't see how a smartphone lover could hate
Windows 10, while the less said about Windows 8 the better.  Having gone
through every iteration of Windows since its debut, my feeling is that Windows
10 has kept virtually everything good about any version of Windows through 7,
and cherry picked the good from the Windows 8 era very skillfully.  I have a
Windows 7 machine I've intentionally kept that way so I have a reference when
the odd client question arises.  All the rest that were either Windows 7 or
Windows 8 have been upgraded to Windows 10.

Hey, my signature is back, Mark's fix worked!!
--
Brian

*I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I nev* *er
made one.*  

          ~  *James G. Bennet*
--
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com which doesn't spy on you


moderated Re: www.groups.io web page

Jujube <ellaxyu@...>
 

That is normal.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Kenyon(h)" <rkenyon@howslife.com
To: beta@groups.io
Date sent: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:44:16 -0800
Subject: [beta] www.groups.io web page

How's Life?

혻 Is the main web site whacked when not logged in?

혻 I have used ie, chrome and firefox and www.groups.io ( http://www.groups.io )혻turns in to혻https://groups.io/ ( https://groups.io/ )혻which shows only:

/snip

i<!DOCTYPE html> <html> <head> <title>Welcome to Groups.io!</title> <meta charset="utf-8"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8"> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1"> <link rel="stylesheet" href="//maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.2.0/css/bootstrap.min
.css"> <script src="https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.11.1/jquery.m
in.js"></script> <script src="//netdna.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.2.0/js/bootstrap.min.j
s"></script> <link href="//netdna.bootstrapcdn.com/font-awesome/4.1.0/css/font-aweso
me.css" rel="stylesheet"

/snip


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

ro-esp
 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 03:20 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 02:59 pm, ro-esp wrote:


People abusing the reply-button for things that are not replies is not something we can solve by technical means.

The problem being that "are not replies" is largely defined
by how a given system, be it an e-mail client, web forum, or otherwise thread.
No, that's not what I mean. I'm talking about when people hit the "reply" button and then start talking about something that has nothing to do with the thread or the subject(line)


 If we were using header threading as "ironclad,"
What do you mean by "ironclad" here?

and announced this in advance and repeatedly, people will eventually learn that
you cannot and should not ever use the "Reply" button and get a new thread/topic, no matter what you do to the subject.
That's one possible policy/setting, but to me it seems more practical if you *can* use the reply to create "spin-off" threads with "indented" quotes.
Should we tell/teach people to not hide their message under unrelated subjectlines? sure


groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: www.groups.io web page

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Richard Kenyon(h) <rkenyon@...> wrote:

How's Life?

  Is the main web site whacked when not logged in?


Oof. Yes, it was, for about 10 minutes. An extra character at the top of the web page. Thanks for the report!

Mark 


moderated www.groups.io web page

Richard Kenyon(h)
 

How's Life?

  Is the main web site whacked when not logged in?

  I have used ie, chrome and firefox and www.groups.io turns in to https://groups.io/ which shows only:

/snip

i<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
	<title>Welcome to Groups.io!</title>
    <meta charset="utf-8">
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8">
    <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge">
    <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1">


    <link rel="stylesheet" href="//maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.2.0/css/bootstrap.min.css">

    <script src="https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.11.1/jquery.min.js"></script>

    <script src="//netdna.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.2.0/js/bootstrap.min.js"></script>

    <link href="//netdna.bootstrapcdn.com/font-awesome/4.1.0/css/font-awesome.css" rel="stylesheet">

/snip


moderated Re: Is there an issue with posts being sent?

Nightowl >8#
 

Mark Fletcher wrote:>>A reminder that you can check to see if we're having any problems sending you messages, and you can also see the last message we sent to you. To see delivery issues across all your subscriptions, go to your Account (click your name/email address in the upper right corner, then Recent Bounces in the sidebar). Or for an individual group, go to the group and click on your Subscription tab, then Email Delivery History.<<

Yikes. That sounds like something John would need to do...Maybe he can show me how.

Mark wrote:>>If there are issues with sending email to an account, that should be reported to support, not beta@.<<

Sorry, I didn't think I was "reporting" it to Beta. I just inquired if anyone else was not getting mail. It was the middle of the night, and John was asleep. I also don't check the AT&T spam folder, only he does that.

I'll see if he can teach me how to do what you just mentioned, and maybe the spam folder, but I don't know if I can do the spam folder as he is the primary person.

Thanks,

Brenda


moderated Re: Is there an issue with posts being sent?

 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Nightowl >8# <featheredleader@...> wrote:
I haven't had a new post in my e-mail since Mark's post #12525, despite the fact that there are more messages after his.


A reminder that you can check to see if we're having any problems sending you messages, and you can also see the last message we sent to you. To see  delivery issues across all your subscriptions, go to your Account (click your name/email address in the upper right corner, then Recent Bounces in the sidebar). Or for an individual group, go to the group and click on your Subscription tab, then Email Delivery History.

If there are issues with sending email to an account, that should be reported to support, not beta@.

Thanks,
Mark 

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