Date   

locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Forgot to address the moderated topic specifically.  Whether it's moderated initially or that's turned on I believe that e-mail participants should receive a message back either for every submission letting them know that all content on this thread is reviewed before going live or, and this is much more complicated programming wise, that sort of message sent the first time any given member attempts to add to a thread that's currently moderated and, if you want to get really complicated and personal, a message sent to anyone known to have already submitted content to a given moderated thread when moderation is removed.   Were a given thread to go from moderated to unmoderated and back again (regardless of number of cycles) the participants list would be cleared after sending the notification of change to unmoderated status and built again, with new "this thread is being moderated" messages, going out for those who attempt to post after moderation is reestablished.  That way anyone who is active on a thread that is subject to moderation the first time they try to submit after moderation is in effect will know that it is in effect and would also be notified when moderation has been removed.

I am as interested in the member knowing and understanding what the "terms of thread" are at any given moment in time as anyone else.  The moderator clearly knows all this already.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Some more observations:

1.  It sounds like the "moderate topic" function is what J has been looking for.  That one makes perfect sense to me because a moderated topic is not locked, and with the rarest of exceptions a locked topic is closed for good.  Members know and expect that the moderator can see content being moderated before it is posted.  They have every reason to believe that moderators will not see something that is rejected from acceptance, since rejected material is not subject to moderation in any way when a "lock" situation is what's causing it.

2. Philosophically, a locked topic should not be able to receive any new content via any interaction method and the member notified of that in a very obvious way.  Since their content is not accepted it should not be able to be viewed by anyone other than them as the originator.  If the "bounce message" for a locked topic (and I no longer have a copy of one of those) needs to be improved to let a member know why their message bounced and the options they have for starting a new topic provided their contribution was not a violation of either TOS or group rules then improve it.

3. When it comes right down to it, regardless of what "social role" a given group moderator may choose to take on as part of their group, from the "software perspective" moderation has always been about being "the traffic cop."   There is no caretaker role at all supported via locking a topic while there can certainly be by moderating one.  Everyone's expectations are on, or close to, the same page for locked versus moderated topics.  By way of analogy, moderating a topic is like being a live traffic cop where you obviously see the car coming up to your handheld stop sign and they see you.  Locking a topic is like putting a "Road Closed" sign up permanently and walking away.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

OTOH there are some social complications. Do you mark a topic as 'moderated'? With 'lock
topic' everyone (except email posters) knows it's locked and everyone is equal (in that all attempted posts are rejected). With 'moderated', people may wonder why their posts are not showing up. Etc. You could use the reject notification, but this is all socially messier than locking the topic and being able to see subsequent attempts. So I still see value in implementing both, if at all possible.

J

J
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 4:50 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

typo - I of course meant 'moderate topic,' not 'moderate locked topic'
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 4:47 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Shal,

I was thinking along the same lines. Implementing 'moderate topic' would be a neat way around this and I think your suggestion, and making the connection, js brilliant. If there's 'moderate locked topic,' I would find no real need to see content of attempts to post to a locked topic. I would simply moderate 'touchy' topics instead. It also is easier (socially speaking) to undo than locking.

I also agree that there's no real need for permanency of the message if 'see attempted post to locked topic' were actually to be implemented.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 12:29 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark,

Hmm. That would require some substantial changes to the database.
And maybe not just the database?

I may be off-track here, but my simple-minded understanding of email processing suggests this may depend on whether you're declining ("bouncing") the message during the server connection, or accepting the message and then issuing the "bounce" notice later.

In either case though a bounce usually means non-delivery. If you do in fact deliver the content to somewhere a moderator can see it then doesn't the response have to be something other than a 5xy failure notice?

In the original post of this topic J suggested that the message content be accessible through perhaps the member's activity page. That would seem to give it a permanency that perhaps it doesn't deserve, and made me wonder if the Pending messages list wasn't already a good place for such things to be available.

But then, there would be scarcely any distinction between "locking" and "moderating" a topic. Hence my suggesion on that subject.

I guess what I'm saying is to amplify J's comment (in that topic) and suggest that implementing the "moderate topic" feature (and its automatic option) might be an easier and more natural way to achieve the result of being able to see the content of these messages - then you might not have to change the behavior when a member sends to a "locked topic".

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

typo - I of course meant 'moderate topic,' not 'moderate locked topic'
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 4:47 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Shal,

I was thinking along the same lines. Implementing 'moderate topic' would be a neat way around this and I think your suggestion, and making the connection, js brilliant. If there's 'moderate locked topic,' I would find no real need to see content of attempts to post to a locked topic. I would simply moderate 'touchy' topics instead. It also is easier (socially speaking) to undo than locking.

I also agree that there's no real need for permanency of the message if 'see attempted post to locked topic' were actually to be implemented.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 12:29 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark,

Hmm. That would require some substantial changes to the database.
And maybe not just the database?

I may be off-track here, but my simple-minded understanding of email processing suggests this may depend on whether you're declining ("bouncing") the message during the server connection, or accepting the message and then issuing the "bounce" notice later.

In either case though a bounce usually means non-delivery. If you do in fact deliver the content to somewhere a moderator can see it then doesn't the response have to be something other than a 5xy failure notice?

In the original post of this topic J suggested that the message content be accessible through perhaps the member's activity page. That would seem to give it a permanency that perhaps it doesn't deserve, and made me wonder if the Pending messages list wasn't already a good place for such things to be available.

But then, there would be scarcely any distinction between "locking" and "moderating" a topic. Hence my suggesion on that subject.

I guess what I'm saying is to amplify J's comment (in that topic) and suggest that implementing the "moderate topic" feature (and its automatic option) might be an easier and more natural way to achieve the result of being able to see the content of these messages - then you might not have to change the behavior when a member sends to a "locked topic".

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Shal,

I was thinking along the same lines. Implementing 'moderate topic' would be a neat way around this and I think your suggestion, and making the connection, js brilliant. If there's 'moderate locked topic,' I would find no real need to see content of attempts to post to a locked topic. I would simply moderate 'touchy' topics instead. It also is easier (socially speaking) to undo than locking.

I also agree that there's no real need for permanency of the message if 'see attempted post to locked topic' were actually to be implemented.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 12:29 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark,

Hmm. That would require some substantial changes to the database.
And maybe not just the database?

I may be off-track here, but my simple-minded understanding of email processing suggests this may depend on whether you're declining ("bouncing") the message during the server connection, or accepting the message and then issuing the "bounce" notice later.

In either case though a bounce usually means non-delivery. If you do in fact deliver the content to somewhere a moderator can see it then doesn't the response have to be something other than a 5xy failure notice?

In the original post of this topic J suggested that the message content be accessible through perhaps the member's activity page. That would seem to give it a permanency that perhaps it doesn't deserve, and made me wonder if the Pending messages list wasn't already a good place for such things to be available.

But then, there would be scarcely any distinction between "locking" and "moderating" a topic. Hence my suggesion on that subject.

I guess what I'm saying is to amplify J's comment (in that topic) and suggest that implementing the "moderate topic" feature (and its automatic option) might be an easier and more natural way to achieve the result of being able to see the content of these messages - then you might not have to change the behavior when a member sends to a "locked topic".

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Mark,

Hmm. That would require some substantial changes to the database.
And maybe not just the database?

I may be off-track here, but my simple-minded understanding of email processing suggests this may depend on whether you're declining ("bouncing") the message during the server connection, or accepting the message and then issuing the "bounce" notice later.

In either case though a bounce usually means non-delivery. If you do in fact deliver the content to somewhere a moderator can see it then doesn't the response have to be something other than a 5xy failure notice?

In the original post of this topic J suggested that the message content be accessible through perhaps the member's activity page. That would seem to give it a permanency that perhaps it doesn't deserve, and made me wonder if the Pending messages list wasn't already a good place for such things to be available.

But then, there would be scarcely any distinction between "locking" and "moderating" a topic. Hence my suggesion on that subject.

I guess what I'm saying is to amplify J's comment (in that topic) and suggest that implementing the "moderate topic" feature (and its automatic option) might be an easier and more natural way to achieve the result of being able to see the content of these messages - then you might not have to change the behavior when a member sends to a "locked topic".

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Can't lock topic from message view, and "ya can't get there from here"

 

Mark,

Looking at the Messages View list, there is no menu of actions you can take on a message - unlike the Topics View list which has a per-topic menu containing "Lock Topic", "Edit Subject", "Make Sticky", "Start/Finish Merge" and "Delete Topic".

I think there are some things that one might want to do from the Messages View list, such as "Like", "Lock Topic", "Make Sticky", "Delete Message" and "Report Message".

Likewise, in the Single View the More menu could use "Lock Topic" and "Make Sticky", even though they apply to the thread as a whole and not that particular message. The lack of consistency here is most noticeable when the topic has only a single message, but it bugs me in either case.

Failing that, there ought to be a way to get from the Single View of a message, to that same message in Topic View.

Perhaps the selector above the message could include "Topic View" along with Messages View, Topics View, and the rest.

As things stand I don't see a way easier than searching for the message's "subject text" - put it in quotes to minimize extraneous results. This is not at all intuitive.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated "Content flagged as objectionable" message #suggestion

 

Mark,

I think the message sent to moderators could use some separators (other than just blank lines) between the boilerplate and the text provided by the member.

Since the message is plain text, perhaps something as simple as a row of dashes would do the trick.

Boilerplate

--------
Reason
reason
--------

Boilerplate

I suppose the other obvious choice would be to mark the reason as a quote:

Boilerplate

Reason
reason
Boilerplate

Shal

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [shalstest] Content flagged as objectionable
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:13:26 -0800
From: Groups.io <noreply@groups.io>
To: me@example.com

Hello,

member@example.com wishes to inform you that the following message:

https://shalstest.groups.io/g/main/message?id=7089066

is objectionable. They entered the following reason why it should be considered objectionable:

This person has way too many good ideas.

And I decided to see what a report looks like from the moderator's point of view...


Please take a moment to review and take action as you feel appropriate for your group.


Cheers,
The Groups.io Team


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

J,

... Etc. etc. etc. I can think of a thousand situations in which
it would be helpful to see what someone tried to post to the group,
and which did not make it through simply because they didn't know a
topic was locked.
Ok, I think I get it. Seeing the content may help you use some discretion in whether or not to interact with the member, and whether or not to re-open the thread.

"I see your message to the group bounced because the thread had been
locked. What was in it?" Are you kidding?
Heh. No I wasn't thinking of asking about the content. I can see where that might open a can of worms.

I was thinking that, for someone making multiple attempts, one might say that you've notice the attempts, explain why those messages haven't posted, and ask if the member needs any further explanation or assistance.

But yes, if you could see the content you could distinguish whether the person was re-trying the same message (implying that they didn't understand why it didn't post) or is just running out their rant.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: Ability to automatically moderate topics #suggestion

 

In fact, the ability in general - not just automatically after a certain amount of time - to "moderate a topic" would be very helpful, and would do away with many of the problems I've mentioned associated with locking a topic and not being able to see subsequent attempted posts to it. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Ability to automatically moderate topics #suggestion

 

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 02:13 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
a group option to "Automatically Moderate Topics Older Than x days", which operates exactly like the automatic topic locking feature.

I would love, love, love that feature. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Shal,

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 02:15 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

I agree that the logged attempt by itself, sans any real information,
is worse than nothing at all.
I don't at all agree with that. I'd want to know that it was happening, if for no other reason but to consider whether the group's locking policy needs reconsideration.

I agree and actually would have amended that, but I wanted to stop the conversation. 

I don't see it in terms of rights or entitlement, but whether it can be helpful to a group (its managers and members) and whether it is practical to implement.

Of course, "rights" and "entitlement" have nothing to do with this. I was trying to respond in the same vein as the one Brian had started, but absolutely agree with you there.

I go back to your original statement that it would be helpful to see the content of the bounced message, and I wonder in what way it would be helpful.

I was trying to explain why it would be helpful when things got (IMO) sidetracked. First, as you yourself mentioned, someone may have raised a legitimate point that would cause me to reconsider keeping the topic locked. Second, they may have posted a "rant" which, even though I would not want the membership as a whole subjected to, might give me, as the group owner, food for thought. Or, the person may have posted something completely out of bounds (against the group guidelines) that would cause me to consider keeping a close eye on them, perhaps even putting them on moderation. Etc. etc. etc. I can think of a thousand situations in which it would be helpful to see what someone tried to post to the group, and which did not make it through simply because they didn't know a topic was locked. I can't think of a single reason to keep it hidden from the moderator, absent the technical difficulty Mark mentioned.

a member might not receive the bounce message (spam filters and other diversions), or might discard it without sufficient inspection or comprehension.

Not just "might." Do.

particularly in circumstances where you note multiple attempts by the same member to post to the same thread it may make sense to contact the member and find out what they are trying to do. But you can do that with the existing log information; so I'm not yet seeing the advantage to being able to access the content.

Well, of course that's the only option available now. But I tend not to use it. It's not that I really want to start an entire offlist conversation with the person. To use the language of "rights," I don't feel they necessarily "deserve" that, just as they don't "deserve" replies to their posts. I don't necessarily want to "get into" anything with them, which, in some cases, is what querying them offlist might entail. And the couple of times I *have* queried a person offlist about it, nobody has ever answered. "I see your message to the group bounced because the thread had been locked. What was in it?" Are you kidding? I'm not going to do that every time I see a message from a locked topic bounced. In most cases, I don't *care* what they were trying to say (case in point: a go-nowhere argument about which pet insurance company is best) and I don't want to get into discussing it with them offlist. But in SOME cases it could be very, very helpful to know what was in the message.




--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

J,

(Sorry for coming late to the party, busy week.)

I agree that the logged attempt by itself, sans any real information,
is worse than nothing at all.
I don't at all agree with that. I'd want to know that it was happening, if for no other reason but to consider whether the group's locking policy needs reconsideration.

And I believe that therefore, the moderator should be entitled to see
what it was.
I don't see it in terms of rights or entitlement, but whether it can be helpful to a group (its managers and members) and whether it is practical to implement.

So for me the ability to see the content of the bounced message isn't as important as being aware of the facts of it. On the other hand I don't see the harm in having a record of the content, and I concur with your position that the content is something the member sent with the intent that it be seen; differing from messages that did not bounce only by a matter of timing (the locking of the thread intervened).

So I go back to your original statement that it would be helpful to see the content of the bounced message, and I wonder in what way it would be helpful.

Without impugning anyone's members, I can well believe that a member might not receive the bounce message (spam filters and other diversions), or might discard it without sufficient inspection or comprehension. And particularly in circumstances where you note multiple attempts by the same member to post to the same thread it may make sense to contact the member and find out what they are trying to do. But you can do that with the existing log information; so I'm not yet seeing the advantage to being able to access the content.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Ability to automatically moderate topics #suggestion

 

Mark,

Prompted by the recent thread about the ability for moderators to see the content of attempted messages to locked topics, I'd like to resurrect the moderate topic wishlist item and add to it:
https://trello.com/c/FIQkulFC/130-option-to-moderate-individual-threads

I would add to that suggestion a group option to "Automatically Moderate Topics Older Than x days", which operates exactly like the automatic topic locking feature.

I don't view these two options as mutually exclusive. Some groups might use one or the other, some both.

A sensible use of both would be to have the automatic moderation set for a shorter period of time than the automatic lock. This would allow the group managers to catch and deal with the tail-out of a thread, but lock it after that.

Logically, setting the lock time shorter than the moderate time would moot the moderation setting, but I don't know that the UI needs to prevent or warn about that condition. Maybe just a text note to that effect.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site this week:

  • NEW: If you login using an emailed login link, and you do not have a password set, show an alert box with a link to set your password.
  • NEW: Members can now report messages, photos and files for objectionable content, to either moderators or Groups.io support.
  • BUGFIX: When importing a CSV file into a database that contains a UTF-8 BOM at the beginning of the file, skip over it to prevent errors.
  • BUGFIX: Fixed duplicate draft creation issue with message replies.
  • NEW: Aggregated calendar view of all events in all your calendars.
  • INTERNAL: Not holding write locks in messageserverd until and unless necessary.
  • CHANGE: For html message footers, the order of 'Reply To Sender'/'Reply To Group' depends on what the group is set to.
  • BUGFIX: For github commit messages, we were showing the author when we should be showing the committer.
  • BUGFIX: Several bugfixes to get chat to work on IE.
  • BUGFIX: Fix two deadlock occurances, one with editing files, one with replying to messages.
  • INTERNAL: Fixed locking issue where we weren't acquiring a lock on the group record properly.
  • CHANGE: Changed activity log for when someone sets their display name for the first time.
  • NEW: Can have multiple member notices of the same type. New member notices: rejected message, removed member, message to member.
  • NEW: New privacy setting for groups: unlisted but with public archives.
  • CHANGE: Subgroups tab is available when viewing all subgroups, not just the parent group.

Have a good weekend everybody.

Mark


moderated Re: Owner replies #suggestion

 

Mark,

I want to revamp the owner message stuff. I like what
https://imzy.com has done; they have a 'Help Desk' area for their
community moderators, which is really a mini-CRM, with open and
closed tickets.
I'm not familiar with imzy, but pulling the inbound and outbound +owner traffic into an area with greater functionality sounds awesome. I've long thought they should be treated a lot more like the Messages section (but separate from Messages, of course). Leverage all of that existing implementation richness you can.

All tickets and their history would be viewable through that area.
That means the individual inbound and outbound messages are also stored and viewable there, correct? Perhaps connected to the ticket (a bit like a thread with extra features), or at least linked to it. Also a per-message view of them perhaps?

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: Owner replies #suggestion

 

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
It would be convenient if, when replying to a +owner message on site, the post could be quoted.  Even having the function as found when replying to a normal post on site, highlight to include, would be welcome.

As has been mentioned before, I also feel outgoing owner messages should be logged, preferably as part of the +owner Messages tab for each member.

Agree with both points. I want to revamp the owner message stuff. I like what https://imzy.com has done; they have a 'Help Desk' area for their community moderators, which is really a mini-CRM, with open and closed tickets. 

I'm thinking of a dedicated area for each group. Someone sends a +owner message, it goes there and is marked as an open ticket. You can reply through that interface, using one of the group notification templates if you like. You can close the ticket. Maybe you can assign the ticket to another moderator. Or you could forward the ticket to Groups.io support. All tickets and their history would be viewable through that area.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Add ability to report or flag a post #suggestion

 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 9:06 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Question for Mark (and all): in the TOU flag, what would be included in "privacy invasion"? 

While I copied the text from Y! Groups, I agree with it. I view it as referring to doxing (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing for a definition).

Mark 


locked Re: Add ability to report or flag a post #suggestion

 

Question for Mark (and all): in the TOU flag, what would be included in "privacy invasion"? Perhaps that could be more specific? For example, would the posting of someone's email address without their knowledge (with or without subversion of figleafing, if figleafing is in effect in that group) be included? The flagging mechanism now leaves the specifics up to the person reporting and allows Groups.io to make the decision on an individual basis, which makes complete sense. I'm just wondering if any specific examples might help in the case of the "privacy invasion" violation.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Add ability to report or flag a post #suggestion

 

Just a heads up that all moderators have the new notification checked as default. That, of course, makes perfect sense. But in one of my groups, all the members are set to moderators just so that they can invite others (they don't receive any notifications or have any other permissions), so I had to go in an uncheck everybody. If any other group owners here have moderators they don't want to receive "flagged" notices, you need to go in and uncheck the new notification.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

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