Date   

moderated Import members and messages

goran@...
 

I miss this option to be able to import members by csv and also to be able to import messages as sql database

/Göran


moderated Files storage shows using size for no files

goran@...
 

The Group file storage shows storage used even if all files are deleted.
Why is that?

/Göran


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Perhaps a dedicated new thread with the "#wishlist" tag is in order . . .


--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

You can delete individual messages from a locked thread, but you can't change the title or tags, or make or unmake it a sticky, without first unlocking it.

J

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:30 am, J_Catlady wrote:
No, nobody can post to a locked thread. Great idea to make the exception for moderators. Then we could actually post in all truthfulness to say the thread is locked.

In certain ways I think that moderator ability to modify a thread locked to the membership is essential.  If things got particularly hot and heavy and there were numerous posts you needed to clean up and/or purge after the fact I'd certainly want to "lock first, do cleanup ASAP after" just so that the cleanup task did not keep building and the flames get higher and higher.  It can easily turn into a "the faster I go the behinder I get" situation.

I guess I'm genuinely surprised that this is not the default behavior, since I've seen way more than one occasion where you really don't want to literally purge an entire thread, you absolutely must clean up stuff that has been posted, and you don't want more stuff being posted that you'd likely have to clean up.  [Not here, mind you, I'm talking generally and over a period of decades in multiple venues.]
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:30 am, J_Catlady wrote:
No, nobody can post to a locked thread. Great idea to make the exception for moderators. Then we could actually post in all truthfulness to say the thread is locked.

In certain ways I think that moderator ability to modify a thread locked to the membership is essential.  If things got particularly hot and heavy and there were numerous posts you needed to clean up and/or purge after the fact I'd certainly want to "lock first, do cleanup ASAP after" just so that the cleanup task did not keep building and the flames get higher and higher.  It can easily turn into a "the faster I go the behinder I get" situation.

I guess I'm genuinely surprised that this is not the default behavior, since I've seen way more than one occasion where you really don't want to literally purge an entire thread, you absolutely must clean up stuff that has been posted, and you don't want more stuff being posted that you'd likely have to clean up.  [Not here, mind you, I'm talking generally and over a period of decades in multiple venues.]
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Locked threads are also not editable in any way, shape, or form. You have to first unlock it and then do whatever you want to do with it. I think I complained (mildly) about this awhile back, but it's also not a big deal.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

No, nobody can post to a locked thread. Great idea to make the exception for moderators. Then we could actually post in all truthfulness to say the thread is locked.

J

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Also, as serious curiosity question:  Are group owners and/or moderators not able to post to a locked thead?  I would think that this function could be supported if it is not and there is occasional reason that this might be handy.  No owner/moderator would do so just for kicks and then you could honestly lock then post a "thread locked" message.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Also, as serious curiosity question:  Are group owners and/or moderators not able to post to a locked thead?  I would think that this function could be supported if it is not and there is occasional reason that this might be handy.  No owner/moderator would do so just for kicks and then you could honestly lock then post a "thread locked" message.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:26 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
I cannot begin to believe, at least on any group with a number of members over 25, that many would ever welcome getting system generated lock messages pertaining to threads on which they had no participation.  

Yeah, you got me there. I agree and I capitulate. :-) 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

          Actually, I did understand what you were saying but I don't think that's much of a practical issue.  I expect that the few moments between hitting the send on a "this thread is locked" and locking it is almost never going to result in anything of significance "slipping by" and that people understand that these two things are "kinda simultaneous" if not literally so.

           I cannot begin to believe, at least on any group with a number of members over 25, that many would ever welcome getting system generated lock messages pertaining to threads on which they had no participation.  In particularly busy groups that have a "petulant, but not ban-able" subset, these could get really annoying.  In the list of deal breakers, or almost deal breakers, this kind of notification for threads on which I am not a participant would be up there if I got them with any frequency whatsoever.

            If one wanted to limit this, using the timing and method you describe, only to participants in a given thread then one would have to have a by-thread participant list kept in order to do it.  That would be a bit of a programming challenge, and possibly a major additional storage challenge.

            You are correct that this is not a big deal and I feel like I've entered big time hair-splitting/"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?".  We both see what we both acknowledge as a minor problem, at best, from opposite sides. 

--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Brian,

Again(?), I think it's not so much that we disagree, but that I haven't gotten my logical (factual) point across.

Even if you eliminate the refresh issue, the problem (or issue, or concern - it's not a big problem) I'm bringing up now is the fact that any message IN the thread itself saying the thread is locked is, essentially, a lie. As the moderator, I have to announce that the thread has been locked while it actually hasn't yet been locked, and then IMMEDIATELY, before anyone else has a chance to post to it, lock the thread.

It would be more logical to have a lock notification go out automatically, by the system, simultaneously with locking as part of the lock function. 

I agree that whatever details we're discussing now are essentially tempests in a teapot and that this is not a big deal.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

That first "Reply to Group" in the last post should have been "Reply Link" which triggers the compose window that's got the "Reply to Group" button to finalize the submission.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

          I also think that the concern you have does indeed apply to web users, but even I will admit that if it does it is the result of accidents of timing.  I believe you have test group(s) and can check this out for yourself and report back.

          I have never noticed Groups.io having any "auto-refresh" function at any level.  What I mean by that is if I land on a messages page in the web interface at, say 10 AM, and walk away and don't look at it until 11 AM, it will not change/update/refresh until or unless I hit the "Messages" control at the left or else if I look in any given thread then return to the messages list via the messages button (I don't know what would happen if I used the back button on a browser instead, it's possible things might not refresh then since cache is likely to be used).

           The same has been true if I have a specific message thread open and walk away from it.  It remains static until I either use the browser reload button or transition back to the message list via the Messages button, which makes everything reload and come up-to-date.

           So, what happens if I've opened a thread for reading while it's unlocked, hit the Reply to Group button, and am called away while still composing and the thread is locked while I'm away?   I don't believe that anything will change on my screen if history is any guide and I imagine I will be allowed to hit the "Reply to Group" button, but I also imagine that the post will end up being rejected as I would expect the check regarding whether a thread is locked occurs at the moment an addition is attempted.  It would be really interesting if that were not the case and this situation could allow someone to actually post to a locked thread if they began a web-interface composition before the thread was locked and the post is allowed based on cached information rather than current.

            If I can start a reply when the thread is not locked, but my screen is not refreshed until my next "action" (for lack of a better way of putting it), then I as a web user am subject to the same sort of "after the fact" notification as an e-mail user.   I realize this would be an uncommon occurrence for a web user while an relatively more common potential experience for an e-mail user.   In the end I don't think there is any practical way around any of this and it's a lot of worry about something that occurs infrequently, as I don't know of many groups where threads end up getting locked on a routine basis secondary to participant behavior and timed locks, such as are used on this forum, become quite predictable once you know they've been put in place.

--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 09:39 am, Brian Vogel wrote:


 Lock notifications are always ... an after the fact affair.

...

 I just can't see the pressing need to go through massive coding efforts ...

to give pre-lock notification

Brian,

I can't see a huge coding effort, either. But if easy, I'd prefer a post-lock notification. And I do think it would be easy. One (admittedly minor) problem now is that you can send the locked notification only BEFORE you lock the thread. As in, "This thread is now locked" within the message itself, when in fact, the thread cannot possibly be locked at that point - it takes the several seconds it takes after sending the message to lock it. Of course you could instead write, "This thread will now be locked" (even as, meanwhile, other messages are possibly coming through).

Again - not a big deal. But the notification would serve both to eliminate this "lie" that "this thread is now locked" and also give a heads up to email users.

It's clear that we're never going to agree on this in its entirety.

I'm totally fine with that!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Another aside related to this is my belief that virtually any group should have a "Welcome to the group" message that outlines some of the features (shortcomings) of interacting with a group via e-mail or the web and that discusses etiquette related to same.

We do need to educate, and kindly educate, new members about how to interact.

A monthly "reminder posting" to the whole group of this same information, which generally evolves over time in response to specific incidents and member queries, is a good idea, too.  [And, yes, I do realize that the vast majority of the membership hits the delete key for these messages, but some at least scan for differences.  Moderators can make things easy too, at least for the membership, by using some method of highlighting just the information that has changed when brand new changes are issued for a given month.]
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

        It's clear that we're never going to agree on this in its entirety.

        People have to learn how "the system" works whenever they choose to engage "the system" whatever that may be.  The way thread locking and notification of same has worked on e-mail lists has been consistent ever since I joined my first one.  Lock notifications are always, whether because you've seen a post by a moderator declaring a thread locked and heeded it, or received a bounce message because you were in the process of composing something that "hit the thread" after it's been locked, an after the fact affair.  You yourself have said that the majority of individuals participating are via e-mail, which means that the majority are on the same footing.

          I just can't see the pressing need to go through massive coding efforts, or if those are to be avoided, the issuance of messages that many e-mail participants in a group will not care one bit about, to give pre-lock notification for a thread.  Once someone experiences this, and only once if they have any memory, they know how the system works.

          And, yes, I stand behind my earlier assertion that should you, as an e-mail user, get a message stating, "You have attempted to post to a thread that is now locked," message and can't comprehend what that means, and how you might proceed next, you are dumb as a rock if you don't, at a minimum, ask if you're confused.  Trying to post again if you've received that message means you haven't even bothered to read it.  I cannot be and should not be responsible for your (generic your) failure to read a clear notification message you've been sent. Everyone is naive about this sort of stuff as a newbie.  You can't get rid of the learning curve no matter what technique of notification is used.  People do have to learn about the medium they're using and this simply cannot be circumvented.

           As asides that are kinda related to this, I've had my little micro-rants, if one can even call them that, with e-mail participants who insist on either not using threaded view and reading through an entire thread as it exists before responding to a message in the middle that's been addressed with precisely what they've offered, or who won't read through their entire batch of unthreaded messages before responding.  I've been on threads where precisely the same information is being posted not minutes after each other, which is a side effect of the e-mail interface that is not fixable, but hours to days after and it's quite clear that the member couldn't be bothered to catch up first.  I also just love those who post saying, "Please respond to me privately because I don't get the digest/get e-mails from this list anymore," and don't think that's rude and outrageous.  These groups are communities and questions asked in public get answered in public because they often can serve to help members other than the original questioner.  The membership is not here as your private information source that you can selectively tap that way.  I receive a lot of "off-list" private questions and that's just fine, and a completely different kettle of fish.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

Brian,

I agree more with your statement here: 

"I am as interested in the member knowing and understanding what the 'terms of thread' are at any given moment in time as anyone else."  

than with this other one: 

"E-mail users are getting what e-mail list users have always gotten in terms of timely notification and web users have an ever-so-slight advantage here."

I think it's a worthy goal to minimize that advantage. We do have many members to whom you might apply your previous description (was it "dumb as a rock"? let's call them "extremely naive users" ;) and they only find out the hard way when a thread is locked. I'd like a better way to give them a heads up. 

I, as a relatively savvy user of Groups.io, can do that explicitly. In fact, I do always send out a message immediately before locking a topic - and even then, it is sometimes not seen because it has the same subject title, or because that information is at the bottom of the post, or perhaps the member who subsequently tries to post does not read that particular email. Besides those problems, there are others: (1) the message/notification can only be sent BEFORE the topic is locked, so there is a slight time lag; (2) it has the same subject (unless explicitly changed) as the topic itself, without an explicit "topic locked" heading; (3) other, not-so-savvy moderators may simply lock a topic and be completely unaware that email users will not know it has been locked.

Of course a notification requires another message in the thread that non-participants have no interest in. But they're already getting messages from the thread that (presumably) they have no more interest in than the "locked" notification, and the difference is marginal. Furthermore, anyone can mute threads they're not interested in.

So I would vote for sending a "locked topic" notification, AFTER a topic has been locked (which is not possible in the current structure). I do not feel strongly about this and feel that either way is fine. 

J

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 07:43 am, J_Catlady wrote:
Also regarding expectations, it has been dawning on me during the course of this conversation that no matter how a topic is marked (either 'locked' or 'moderated'), email-only users (which seem to be the majority of our group's membership) can't see it. I'm wondering whether a system email can automatically go out to the effect that 'this topic is now locked' (or 'this topic is now moderated' when that's implemented) to put email users on an equal footing with web users in that regard.

 J, the answer to that is "no" unless someone were to implement either a "participant tracking list" for a given thread or a blanket message were to go out to the entire group membership, which I very much doubt would be wanted by those not participating.

Again, I think that you (in this case, you) have to accept that there are going to be slight differences in who knows what precisely when that are a side effect of the hybrid environments supported by Groups.io.  E-mail users are getting what e-mail list users have always gotten in terms of timely notification and web users have an ever-so-slight advantage here.

People have the option, whether they choose to exercise it, of using "the other" interaction method.

Limitations are imposed by either choice that are attached pretty tightly to the method and trying to make either method entirely equivalent to the other is a sure road to madness.  When I was on mailing lists (and I still am on one, just not here) you knew (at least once you'd experienced it once) that the way you found out a thread was locked was the first time you tried to contribute to it once it was locked if the moderator did not put out a message that the thread had been locked and you had seen that message before trying to contribute.  There are things that are a feature and a bug.  The slight lag in how a person learns that a thread is locked when they're an e-mail participant is one of those.  I really don't think that going through some massive gyrations even in an attempt to change this is worth it.  Members do need to understand that their choice of interaction interface carries some inherent qualities, some of which could never be fixed and some of which are way more trouble than its worth to try to fix.

I know that I certainly don't give a flying rats patootie about any topic being locked on which I am not participating.  I also think it's a good idea for any moderator to post a "this thread is being locked" and, in my opinion, with a direct explanation of why, when that action is taken as the closing message for that thread.  That keeps everyone informed in as timely a manner as necessary.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 07:43 am, J_Catlady wrote:
Also regarding expectations, it has been dawning on me during the course of this conversation that no matter how a topic is marked (either 'locked' or 'moderated'), email-only users (which seem to be the majority of our group's membership) can't see it. I'm wondering whether a system email can automatically go out to the effect that 'this topic is now locked' (or 'this topic is now moderated' when that's implemented) to put email users on an equal footing with web users in that regard.

 J, the answer to that is "no" unless someone were to implement either a "participant tracking list" for a given thread or a blanket message were to go out to the entire group membership, which I very much doubt would be wanted by those not participating.

Again, I think that you (in this case, you) have to accept that there are going to be slight differences in who knows what precisely when that are a side effect of the hybrid environments supported by Groups.io.  E-mail users are getting what e-mail list users have always gotten in terms of timely notification and web users have an ever-so-slight advantage here.

People have the option, whether they choose to exercise it, of using "the other" interaction method.

Limitations are imposed by either choice that are attached pretty tightly to the method and trying to make either method entirely equivalent to the other is a sure road to madness.  When I was on mailing lists (and I still am on one, just not here) you knew (at least once you'd experienced it once) that the way you found out a thread was locked was the first time you tried to contribute to it once it was locked if the moderator did not put out a message that the thread had been locked and you had seen that message before trying to contribute.  There are things that are a feature and a bug.  The slight lag in how a person learns that a thread is locked when they're an e-mail participant is one of those.  I really don't think that going through some massive gyrations even in an attempt to change this is worth it.  Members do need to understand that their choice of interaction interface carries some inherent qualities, some of which could never be fixed and some of which are way more trouble than its worth to try to fix.

I know that I certainly don't give a flying rats patootie about any topic being locked on which I am not participating.  I also think it's a good idea for any moderator to post a "this thread is being locked" and, in my opinion, with a direct explanation of why, when that action is taken as the closing message for that thread.  That keeps everyone informed in as timely a manner as necessary.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

 Brian, our posts crossed. I just said more or less the same thing, including for locked topics. Your idea is more nuanced, but I definitely agree that some sort of notification is in order.
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Forgot to address the moderated topic specifically.  Whether it's moderated initially or that's turned on I believe that e-mail participants should receive a message back either for every submission letting them know that all content on this thread is reviewed before going live or, and this is much more complicated programming wise, that sort of message sent the first time any given member attempts to add to a thread that's currently moderated and, if you want to get really complicated and personal, a message sent to anyone known to have already submitted content to a given moderated thread when moderation is removed.   Were a given thread to go from moderated to unmoderated and back again (regardless of number of cycles) the participants list would be cleared after sending the notification of change to unmoderated status and built again, with new "this thread is being moderated" messages, going out for those who attempt to post after moderation is reestablished.  That way anyone who is active on a thread that is subject to moderation the first time they try to submit after moderation is in effect will know that it is in effect and would also be notified when moderation has been removed.

I am as interested in the member knowing and understanding what the "terms of thread" are at any given moment in time as anyone else.  The moderator clearly knows all this already.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: ability for moderators to see attempted messages to locked topic #suggestion

 

 Brian,

(Mostly) agreed. But regarding expectations, with a moderated topic the topic would have to be marked as such for members to have the expectation that subsequent posts are subject to moderation. So I assume that would happen in the planned implementation (as on Trello)?

Also regarding expectations, it has been dawning on me during the course of this conversation that no matter how a topic is marked (either 'locked' or 'moderated'), email-only users (which seem to be the majority of our group's membership) can't see it. I'm wondering whether a system email can automatically go out to the effect that 'this topic is now locked' (or 'this topic is now moderated' when that's implemented) to put email users on an equal footing with web users in that regard.

Of course the moderator can do this, and I have always said 'this topic is now closed' within a message. But the email users may not have read that particular message. And some moderators may fail to do this at all, since they would think that marking the topic as locked is sufficient. They may not understand that it is only evidently locked to web users. 

So an automated notification or message that goes out (can be by email only, if moderated topics are, like their locked brethren, marked as such on the web) I think would be very helpful by giving a heads up to email users.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Some more observations:

1.  It sounds like the "moderate topic" function is what J has been looking for.  That one makes perfect sense to me because a moderated topic is not locked, and with the rarest of exceptions a locked topic is closed for good.  Members know and expect that the moderator can see content being moderated before it is posted.  They have every reason to believe that moderators will not see something that is rejected from acceptance, since rejected material is not subject to moderation in any way when a "lock" situation is what's causing it.

2. Philosophically, a locked topic should not be able to receive any new content via any interaction method and the member notified of that in a very obvious way.  Since their content is not accepted it should not be able to be viewed by anyone other than them as the originator.  If the "bounce message" for a locked topic (and I no longer have a copy of one of those) needs to be improved to let a member know why their message bounced and the options they have for starting a new topic provided their contribution was not a violation of either TOS or group rules then improve it.

3. When it comes right down to it, regardless of what "social role" a given group moderator may choose to take on as part of their group, from the "software perspective" moderation has always been about being "the traffic cop."   There is no caretaker role at all supported via locking a topic while there can certainly be by moderating one.  Everyone's expectations are on, or close to, the same page for locked versus moderated topics.  By way of analogy, moderating a topic is like being a live traffic cop where you obviously see the car coming up to your handheld stop sign and they see you.  Locking a topic is like putting a "Road Closed" sign up permanently and walking away.
--
Brian

A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo.  ~ Bill Gray


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. 

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

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