Date   

moderated Re: Weird display date on two groups #bug

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:47 PM Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

On two of the groups I own the group started date on the home page displays weirdly; it's almost as if the format for it was MM-DD-YYYY at one time then it got changed to the ISO YYYY-MM-DD format but the string wasn't reset in between assignment or something, I don't know; if I hover the mouse over it, it shows the correct date in US date format.

This should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Ability to add hashtags in replies #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 05:25 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Even though it'd make things easier in this instance, I'm not sure it's a good idea overall, hence this email. Do people have strong feelings about this?
It has been the way it is since I started using Groups.io so it may help if I understood the rationale for ignoring hashtags on replies to start with.  I've managed to get most of the members in my group to use hashtags sensibly and they understand that they apply on the first message of a new topic. So, unless there are clear benefits in changing it, I'm happy with the way it is now.

Regards
Andy


moderated Re: Ability to add hashtags in replies #suggestion

 

Hi,

I think some groups might appreciate this. Consider:

A member posts a new message that was traditionally associated with a hashtag. Somehow, the member has forgotten to attach a hashtag. Someone else replies (perhaps an owner) and tries to add the needed hashtag without going to the web archive and changing it.

One concern is how this will handle topic splits. As pointed out by a moderator of a list I’m a part of, when you change subject lines, topics are split, and I believe this is also the case when hashtags are introduced by members in the middle of a topic. If I understand this proposal correctly, topics won’t be split even if hashtags are introduced when replying. Am I right on this?

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Fletcher
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 9:25 AM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] Ability to add hashtags in replies #suggestion

 

Hi All,

Currently, if you change the subject in a reply, to add an additional hashtag, that hashtag is just ignored. What do you all think about changing that, so that replies to topics can add hashtags?

I'm asking because in one particular case for me, it'd make things easier. As Andy has noted, I have not been keeping up with adding the #done hashtag to #suggestion topics where I've implemented the suggestion. It would be convenient if, when I reply indicating I've implemented the suggestion, that I could add the #done hashtag, instead of having to go to the website and editing the topic.

Even though it'd make things easier in this instance, I'm not sure it's a good idea overall, hence this email. Do people have strong feelings about this? I'm not particularly interested in adding a group toggle for this.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Ability to add hashtags in replies #suggestion

 

Hi All,

Currently, if you change the subject in a reply, to add an additional hashtag, that hashtag is just ignored. What do you all think about changing that, so that replies to topics can add hashtags?

I'm asking because in one particular case for me, it'd make things easier. As Andy has noted, I have not been keeping up with adding the #done hashtag to #suggestion topics where I've implemented the suggestion. It would be convenient if, when I reply indicating I've implemented the suggestion, that I could add the #done hashtag, instead of having to go to the website and editing the topic.

Even though it'd make things easier in this instance, I'm not sure it's a good idea overall, hence this email. Do people have strong feelings about this? I'm not particularly interested in adding a group toggle for this.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

I like this. It's not a separate welcome message, which I think would have been confusing.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: #bug in Advanced Preferences on member page #bug

 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:48 AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
While looking over some things for another topic, I noticed that in the Advanced Preferences panel of a member page, the blue box says, "Note: The preferences below do not apply if you select either Special Notices Only in the Email Delivery panel above."  It's missing the "or No Email" part.  Checking further, this only happens on a group with No Email disabled.  While technically correct, it reads strangely.  Removing the word "either" should allow it to read properly for either situation.

I've removed the `either`.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

Hi All,

I've added links to the help center to the following areas:

- The email sent when someone confirms their account via email (aka the confirming confirmation email).
- The welcome page when someone confirms their account via the web.
- The default group welcome message. (this message is created when the group is created, so this addition is not retroactive to existing groups).

The added line is of the form: "Visit our <a href="https://groups.io/helpcenter">help center</a> for more information about how the Groups.io site works."

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

I know all about the sinking yahoo groups and the groups.io lifeboats. It was practically the only subject of conversation here for months. I just meant that you did have other choices.


On Jan 25, 2021, at 6:11 AM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Sorry, perhaps poor choice of words.  Nothing sinister intended,

The groups I now own were moved to Yahoo in early 2002 from a private server.  Yahoo served our purposes just fine until they decided to terminate services essential to our normal operations.  This impending self-destruction thereby forced many groups utilizing Yahoo hosting to find another “home” that, given the option, would have much preferred to continue as before.

At the time, generally available information strongly suggested Groups.io the best available option.  During the week it took me to decide to bring over my groups, that process was no longer free.  

Not only did no one hold a gun to my head to move my groups here, but  I personally “fronted” the funds necessary for a migration I considered essential to said groups survival.  So long as we’re “grandfathered” as a privileged free group, we’re good (perhaps not forever  ;<)

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 10:25 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

<snip>

What “forced migration”?


On Jan 24, 2021, at 7:58 PM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Hi Christos,

<snip>

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

<snip>

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Sorry, perhaps poor choice of words.  Nothing sinister intended,

The groups I now own were moved to Yahoo in early 2002 from a private server.  Yahoo served our purposes just fine until they decided to terminate services essential to our normal operations.  This impending self-destruction thereby forced many groups utilizing Yahoo hosting to find another “home” that, given the option, would have much preferred to continue as before.

At the time, generally available information strongly suggested Groups.io the best available option.  During the week it took me to decide to bring over my groups, that process was no longer free.  

Not only did no one hold a gun to my head to move my groups here, but  I personally “fronted” the funds necessary for a migration I considered essential to said groups survival.  So long as we’re “grandfathered” as a privileged free group, we’re good (perhaps not forever  ;<)

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 10:25 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

<snip>

What “forced migration”?


On Jan 24, 2021, at 7:58 PM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Hi Christos,

<snip>

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

<snip>

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 11:56 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I think that could be handled with a text note in the Email Delivery panel. Something like:

"If you select a Digest or Summary delivery format note that any message designated by the group as a Special Notices will be delivered to you both within your Digest or Summary as well as in an Individual Message."
Yep, I've already suggested that amendment to Christos's proposal.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

Shal,

Home run. I agree with all of that, and glad you agree the "what vs how dissonance" (what I called the category illogic) should be removed. And I agree, of course, that "no email" should be part of Message Selection. I meant to imply that. Everything I wrote was from the perspective of a disable-no-email group. And I also agree about the detail about the placement of the panels ("what" before "how"). I don't know if you've seen Christos's latest proposal. I think it does everything that you and I are suggesting, in a way very comprehensible to users, and solves all the problems.

I also agree about removing the Special Notices Only option from the Actions menu. That works but I think some here would complain about it. I personally don't think it would be problematic.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

J,

The problem is that special notices should always be sent
individually, in addition to being in either the digest or the
summary. That would have to be made clear.
I think that could be handled with a text note in the Email Delivery panel. Something like:

"If you select a Digest or Summary delivery format note that any message designated by the group as a Special Notices will be delivered to you both within your Digest or Summary as well as in an Individual Message."

Shal


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

J,

The most important thing is to disallow the combination of Special
Notices Only and Following Only. I assume you agree with that, because
that's really the basis of my thread.
Resolving it the way you did in #28118, by making their concurrent selection mean receive both "special notices" and "topics/hashtags you follow" seemed attractive to me at first.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/28118

But the more I think about it the more I prefer to remove the "what"/"how" dissonance by making Special Notices Only part of the Message Selection controls.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to handle the
secondary place (mentioned by Andy) where it's possible to set to
Special Notices Only.
That Actions menu duplicates only the Email Delivery options, so if Special Notices Only is removed from that Subscription panel, then I'd expect it to be removed from this Actions menu also. That would leave both places selecting only "how".


I almost hate to say this, but much the same logic can be applied to the "No Email" selection. It is more of a "what" than a "how" and perhaps should be a part of the Message Selection controls rather than the Email Delivery control. In for a penny, in for a pound.

And at that point maybe I'd put the "what" panel (Message Selection) ahead of the "how" panel (Email Delivery).

Shal


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

Bill,

No offense, but I have no idea what you are talking about, your reply makes no sense to me in relation to my OP message which you quoted, and it  does seem a bit over-exaggerated.  The only part that made some sense to me is this:

"But I would strenuously object if notification to “...all types of new GIO account users…” were automatically incorporated as it would raise issues in my groups I would much prefer remain “sleeping dogs”"

But even that, I suspect you may have misunderstood what I actually meant by notification, because I still cannot get how that would cause your groups to wake up.

Cheers,
Christos


On 2021-01-24 22:44, txercoupemuseum.org via groups.io wrote:
Hi Christos,

I cannot think of a more sure way to make owners and moderators of “simple” groups that focus on limited subjects tear their hair out than to do this.  If an owner or moderator wants to make a full time job (unpaid) of managing their group(s), this would immediately and irreversibly do that!

My people (and I) could care less about most of the almost infinite complications interminably discussed on GMF, and I have no intention whatsoever of letting that genie out of the bottle.  To my knowledge, nothing would keep them from joining [beta].

We are an aircraft technical group, not a “group management” group.  Anyone who wants to can join or quit and contribute or not as they see fit.  Over twenty years, only one person has been thrown out.

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

That said, every group has its own reasons to exist.  I fully understand that one size DOES NOT “fit all”.  But I would strenuously object if notification to “...all types of new GIO account users…” were automatically incorporated as it would raise issues in my groups I would much prefer remain “sleeping dogs”.

Best!

WRB


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

 

While I’m not crazy about the proposal, I really don’t see it causing all these problems.

What “forced migration”?


On Jan 24, 2021, at 7:58 PM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Hi Christos,

I cannot think of a more sure way to make owners and moderators of “simple” groups that focus on limited subjects tear their hair out than to do this.  If an owner or moderator wants to make a full time job (unpaid) of managing their group(s), this would immediately and irreversibly do that!

My people (and I) could care less about most of the almost infinite complications interminably discussed on GMF, and I have no intention whatsoever of letting that genie out of the bottle.  To my knowledge, nothing would keep them from joining [beta].

We are an aircraft technical group, not a “group management” group.  Anyone who wants to can join or quit and contribute or not as they see fit.  Over twenty years, only one person has been thrown out.

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

That said, every group has its own reasons to exist.  I fully understand that one size DOES NOT “fit all”.  But I would strenuously object if notification to “...all types of new GIO account users…” were automatically incorporated as it would raise issues in my groups I would much prefer remain “sleeping dogs”.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

I like this a lot. A couple of points:

(1) Following Only needs to specify that they also receive Special Notices
(2) Digests and Daily Summary need to clarify that Special Notices are still sent as individual emails
(3) You would still need to deal with the issue someone here brought up (I think it was Andy?) of setting these options in a different place. Would need coordination, clarity, and the fix there as well as here.

But overall, great job!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Christos,

I cannot think of a more sure way to make owners and moderators of “simple” groups that focus on limited subjects tear their hair out than to do this.  If an owner or moderator wants to make a full time job (unpaid) of managing their group(s), this would immediately and irreversibly do that!

My people (and I) could care less about most of the almost infinite complications interminably discussed on GMF, and I have no intention whatsoever of letting that genie out of the bottle.  To my knowledge, nothing would keep them from joining [beta].

We are an aircraft technical group, not a “group management” group.  Anyone who wants to can join or quit and contribute or not as they see fit.  Over twenty years, only one person has been thrown out.

Lengthy discussions as to what is or is not possible on Groups.io since our forced migration has been extremely limited and carried on “off list”.  On our forums this would be considered by this owner as “off topic” and I don’t believe such subscriber involvement should be encouraged.

That said, every group has its own reasons to exist.  I fully understand that one size DOES NOT “fit all”.  But I would strenuously object if notification to “...all types of new GIO account users…” were automatically incorporated as it would raise issues in my groups I would much prefer remain “sleeping dogs”.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

J brought up a good point in the sub settings topic:

> No group members I know of read the manual or even know that it exists.
 
This may have fallen through the cracks ever since the Help Center was created, but why not include some info blurb and the links to the manuals (help center landing page) in the account confirmation message?  Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?  And possibly also post it on the landing page (with the profile edit blurb and links) where the new user is landed when they click the new-account confirmation link, or the first time they manually log-in? 

Doing both ensures all types of new GIO account users are served, done manually by the user or through DirectAdded / Invite.

It should help with the visibility issue.  (said message could also possibly include any other basic-basic-info-to-the-average-user we may want to also include)

For the existing user base, I guess a one-time mass emailing is out of the question, but it could be setup as the same "show it just once" onscreen note with link when users log-in or first time they visit (since the note gets instituted); or alternatively set it up as a persisting-but-timed note with the "x" option to dismiss it, in which case it won't show again.

Cheers,
Christos
_._,_._,_


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

OK all, on the subject of reconsidering the page layout while at it, (which would also fix the OP issue), I took the suggestions brought up so far, twisted them a bit, and came up with a "new-and-improved" proposal. (see attached)

What I like it about it -if you look at it closely- is that no setting (and its current meaning) is changed (except for some help blurb minor changes), it's the same exact functionality of the current screen, just presented a bit differently; what changes is some of the settings are now strategically rearranged so the delivery material (what/which) goes at the top now, and the delivery method (how) goes below it.  The flow now changes to a simpler "send me nothing, or send me [everything/someofit...] using [individual/enhanced-digest/plain-digest/daily-summary] emails and limit its size to [maxsize] if necessary."  I think it gives the delivery panel a logical and straightforward, easy to follow & understand workflow (provided we caption it optimally), and also addresses the issues brought forward:

- Cleaner/streamlined message delivery section, no more need for separate Delivery and AdvPrefs panels & expanding/collapsing/hiding, moving things around, etc.
- The MaxAttachment setting is no longer the forgotten toy in the back of the closet.
- No more nonsensical/invalid combinations presented in the screen, it's very clear what happens.
- Mostly self-explanatory, and because only the really-important parts of that big light-blue note are used, the note can be done away with since the rest of its current text is now visually "told" (shown) in the new layout and text changes, hence cleaner more compact screen look.
- I would think the (initial) user shock would be little, gone soon; heck, some may think Cool! My account was enhanced with new options.
- No code/UI change needed in the multi-group-select -> Actions menu. (unless if we wanted to add the FO option(s) there)
- No code/UI change needed in the Admin -> MemberList-multicheck -> SetEmailDelivery dialog.  (unless if we wanted to add the FO option(s) there, but I'd think only the user themselves should set FO on their account, I assumed that's what we would want)
- I don't see any downstream emailing selector code needing to change because the underlying current structure (and routing logic) doesn't change.
- reMarkably, the only work required would be mostly screen UI work, with some minor code work to account for the disable/grey-out/possibly-clear radio+options combos; I don't think any screen logic code would need to change because the settings still mean and do exactly what they did before.
- And as an after-effect, this proposal also exposes the FO options in plain view in the forefront, so it can encourage/promote FO usage.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Include info blurb & link to the upon account creation #suggestion

Duane
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 03:27 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
Or even better, send a separate Welcome message (once) to the user with that info & link after the account gets confirmed?
I've had the following wording in all of my groups Welcome message since June 1, 2020:
There's a manual available for members to learn more about how the site works at https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual.  There is a PDF version that can be downloaded.

I also include a blurb about it at the bottom of the Guidelines that go out monthly and have a sticky topic on each group.  It doesn't appear to help much, but at least it's readily available.

Duane


moderated Re: Disallow concurrent "special notices" and "following only" #suggestion #bug

 

The text says that. The labels themselves could be changed as I suggested earlier. 

If you think it’s a mountain out of a molehill then you stand nothing to gain or lose by the suggested change and it’s hard to see why you fight it so continuously.


On Jan 24, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 04:47 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would actually rephrase that: it will not work the way *any* user expects. If you set yourself to Following Only after setting yourself to Special Notices Only, you would expect to receive messages from topics you're following. I can't imagine anyone expecting otherwise.
The Advanced Preferences note clearly states that they do not apply if Special Notices Only is set so I fail to see what the real problem is.  It doesn't matter what your members think they will get, it does what it says and that's what matters. I this topic is making a mountain out of mole hill.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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