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moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 07:20 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.
I agree. The system hashtags could/should be set to "use by moderators only." Other attributes of them could/should also be set by default by the system, such as the ones that don't really apply (e.g. "locked," "moderated") and the ones that seem to conflict with alternatively-specified attributes (e.g., "no email"). In the case of "no email," it sounds on the surface like you're trying to specify the conditions and methods under which the notification is delivered. But that could/should be handled elsewhere in the separate "notifications" section I'm proposing.

Each notification would have various options and conditions for delivery, specified by the mods. They would each get a system hashtag, but those hashtags would be specially set up and constrained by the system as above, so as not to conflict with the options of the notification itself. Members could still mute the tags individually.

Those are the lines I'm starting to think along.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

Bruce Bowman
 

Mark -- I'm thinking that we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.

In the former case, I might want to mute it, or set it to No Email, or set the Topic Duration to one hour or some such, so it doesn't reside forever in the message archive. In the latter case I would want it to go through to the subscribers immediately and remain forever in the archive.

Currently, the only way available to manage this is to put the hashtag on moderation, which not only increases moderator workload (re: Patti's problem with wiki updates) but also delays the posting of desirable messages.

If we're going to use system hashtags for this, we're going to need some way to keep subscribers from using them (and optimally, keep them off the "top hashtags" list). Since bouncing incoming emails that might by chance contain a reserved hashtag seems rather harsh, I suggest they simply be stripped.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:00 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
separate block
Yes, separate block. I'm about to go back and revisit Mark's question about whether notifications should be in a separate place, or something. I did not even understand the question at that point because I couldn't mine to work at all due to the private browsing issue. But the more I see what this is, the more I think there should be a separate "notifications" section, and "notifications" should be separate entities, with all of their appropriate attributes (such as to whom, and when, they are sent out and in what form), and with none of the inappropriate ones. Their hashtags could be incidental, just as with cal-notices. Hashtags would not be the main mechanism for them.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:08 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
There's no way for me to know the reason why notifications aren't available in a browser, so I don't think I can be more specific on the message. But we'll add troubleshooting info to the docs
Mark,

I don't know how many people browse privately as a matter of course, but I suspect it might be non-trivial. I'm thinking you might consider adding something to the effect of "(Some browsers do not allow push notifications if browsing privately.)" below the line stating that the browser does not support notifications. It took several days for me, in concert with a few others here, to figure out what was wrong, and adding something general like that seems easy and might save people from resorting to a troubleshooting page.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

M Parker
 

Mark

I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default. I would be unhappy if the feature was removed as I periodically move files around from one folder to another for archiving purposes and am not keen on there being lots of such notifications swamping the daily digests or individual mails for members receiving them. Setting a time period is one way to avoid this but is 5 minutes long enough?

Margaret P
Leeds, UK

I just pushed the following changes:
  • The Notify Members checkbox when uploading files is now checked by default, in preparation for removing it at some point.

Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. One thing I'm curious about is whether I need to aggregate these notifications if they are generated within a certain limited time period. That is, if someone does 10 edits of the same wiki page in 5 minutes, should those just generate one notification (after 5 minutes). This would cause a delay on when the notification is sent out while we wait to see if any more changes happen. I'm curious to know if that will be a common occurrence.

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moderated Re: 'No email' attribute ignored on 'file' hashtag #bug

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:15 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
ignored on the #file hashtag
Actually I tested it only for the #wiki tag, and my prior message refers to that. It needs to be tested for all of them at this point.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: 'No email' attribute ignored on 'file' hashtag #bug

 

That is a double bug, because if you check "no email," the push notification is silenced. It's stated that the push only goes out whenever an email goes out. So evidently, push thinks the email didn't go out, even though it did. (I tested this yesterday for a completely different reason. Since turning the email back on restored the push, I assumed that no-email was working, at least on its own.) Mark said yesterday that he would look into the behavior of no-email because of the resulting push behavior. (Also the fact that the notification is still sent to the group, even if not emailed.) The whole thing does not jive.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated 'No email' attribute ignored on 'file' hashtag #bug

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

just in case this point got lost in the long discussions about the new notifications I thought I'd raise it separately.

The 'No email' attribute is ignored on the #file hashtag. I had 'no email' specified but an email was still sent to my test subgroup.

I initially thought the 'notify members' checkbox option took precedence over the 'no email' attribute of the hashtag but an email is sent even if the 'notify members' box is unchecked.

Regards,
Andy


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:59 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Agreed. There has to be a way to turn each notification off, either completely, and/or per action (as with uploading files), and/or sending just to moderators. Preferably all of those options. 
Exactly. That would be great.
Victoria

 


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

Agreed. There has to be a way to turn each notification off, either completely, and/or per action (as with uploading files), and/or sending just to moderators. Preferably all of those options. 

The choice of “no email” for a regular hashtag is an example of square peg - round hole. It has a completely different meaning (and effect) for these notification tags. “Locked” and “moderated” and other settings also don’t really apply in any meaningful way. I think “notification tags“ should be completely separate objects, not regular hashtags, with their own settings etc. 


On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:09 AM, Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...> wrote:

In scrolling down the replies to this thread I don't see if there is a way for wiki edit notifications to reach only mods and owners. 

I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link. 

This is coming at a bad time as I was in the process of proofing our wiki. 

Thanks. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Sandi D
 

In scrolling down the replies to this thread I don't see if there is a way for wiki edit notifications to reach only mods and owners. 

I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link. 

This is coming at a bad time as I was in the process of proofing our wiki. 

Thanks. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Jean

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:15 AM, Jean Bennett wrote:
clicked to be taken to the photo and got a 404 error
this was reported earlier in this topic and Mark mentioned it had been fixed for new notifications https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25391

If your message with the link was generated before Mark fixed the problem you will still get a 404 error.  If you upload a new photo and get a new notification and link it should be OK now.

Cheers
Andy


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Jean Bennett
 

Mark—First, my extreme gratitude for the rollout of notifications. Got the first notification of an uploaded photo, and then clicked to be taken to the photo and got a 404 error that the photo wasn’t there (it is). Probably just a bug. I can send you the notification if you need it.

Jean


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:00 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
GMF has that problem with #wiki already, and has near misses with the other two (#files and #photos).
On one of my groups, I had a tag named #File that I've changed to #Files.  If I hadn't, no telling how it would have reacted with the notification system.

Duane


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:51 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Failing groups.io doing it, there should be a list somewhere, maybe in the documentation, about exactly what notification hashtags are available.
As the number of system hashtags seems to be growing, it would also be help to have them clearly identified on the hashtags page - perhaps by listing them in a separate block.

Andy


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

Mark,

* Creating or modifying a wiki page now generates a #wiki
* Uploading photos to an album now generates #photo
* The existing file notification now comes tagged with a #file
I'm concerned about the name space collision with user-generated and used hashtags of the same names. This wasn't a big problem with the calendar events as those tags have a distinct form that's unlikely to be used for ordinary message postings.

Granted GMF and Group_Help are unusual cases, but those three nouns seem way too likely to collide with something a member might use. GMF has that problem with #wiki already, and has near misses with the other two (#files and #photos).

Given that these new ones aren't intended to be used by members, I don't think it would be a bad thing to make them hyphenated also, as in
#file-notice, #photo-notice, and #wiki-notice or something of the sort. Not quite the same semantics as #cal-notice, but close enough.

Shal


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

Mark,

My expectation is that most people won't use the `Web/App Notify`
functionality;
Most people no, but moderators who moderate by web might well use them as a prompt to go see what happened. As a primarily email user I'll be getting push notices for them from my email interface.

Shal


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

Mark,

One thing I'm curious about is whether I need to aggregate these
notifications if they are generated within a certain limited time
period. ... I'm curious to know if that will be a common occurrence.
Seems like something your database could answer. My "why don't they just" moment: query for all page updates, group by page, compute the interval between updates, histogram the results.

This is something I was thinking about earlier. There is a tension between the desire for timely notification and a desire not to be flooded. One possibility would be to generally aggregate them, but make an exception for an update when there has not been a prior update within that limited time period; in that case post the notification immediately.

So for example, if the wiki were to have a burst of updates the first notice would go out immediately, but subsequent ones would be gathered and report something like "n more updates in the last [time period]".

I don't really have a good answer for how long that time period should be. More than a minute, less than a day seems obvious to me. Perhaps one hour would be a reasonable compromise.

Shal


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 08:43 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
all in one screen
I see the fallacy of this proposal now. The second screen is for non-mods to mute etc. I'm giving up and going to bed. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

Thinking about it further (always dangerous), it’s also a weird UI thing. The settings for a notification tag are spread around in more than one screen, yet can affect each other. I am wondering about there being a special kind of tag called a notification tag. It would have a different set of edit options from a regular tag, but they would be all in one screen. And included would be the ability to *not* send that particular notification to the group at all (email or web), and possibly just to moderators. 


On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:36 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:39 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:30 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
this is not a bug because it is not emailed.
However, I notice that the push notification only goes out if the notification *is* emailed, which is the reason that even after I checked the Edit link thing, I still got no push notification. So if email for a notification hashtag is disabled, then push notifications are automatically disabled, yet the notification is still sent to the group. Is that the desired behavior? Somehow I think not, but I'm going to get off this subject for awhile. :)
 

That is not the desired behavior. I'll look into it tomorrow.

Thanks,
Mark 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu