Date   

moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

Sara,
It would be $5 for any number of groups. The fee is to join groups.io, not to join a group. I am totally against members paying to join an individual group, not because of the cost to them but for other reasons.


On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:21 AM, monamouroui <monamouroui@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 08:05 AM, Tanya's Feline CKD Website wrote:
So then I am in the awkward position of kicking people out, probably starting with the people whose cats died years ago and who just lurk; but who knows their true circumstances.
Tanya, I'm one of those lurkers. My cat had PKD. I joined you on Yahoo when he went into acute kidney failure at 8 yrs old. Despite my vet issuing him a execution order, with the help of your group and my new vet, he lived another 3 years. Unlike his replacement who developed FIP and passed after 3 months, not years, I was able to do something for Sparky to prolong his life.

I continue to lurk out of respect for you and your group. So that when people join, they can see there are thousands of others who have either gone through or are going through what they are experiencing. And of course in case one of my 4 new cats gets sick. I never considered it a burden, so might leave now that I realize this could be a problem for Mark and you to support all these lurkers.

The biggest issue I have with the $5/group group fee is it will limit how many groups someone might want to join. So not to complicate matters too much, I wonder if there could be a multi-group fee for those of us who join 10, 20, 30 groups?

Sara

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

I’ve said this already but I’ll chime in to say that for me, the only realistic options are (a) owner o okays all plus enhanced donations and (b) everybody pays. To use the word “convoluted” to describe the Samuel plan, as Sara did, is understatement. The complexities are so bad that they’re laughable (I literally lol’d reading his and Sandi’s posts about the care and maintenance of the “free slots” - no offense to Samuel, it does sound great on the surface and at first glance). IMO that plan is so bad that it could actually have fatal consequences. I don’t even think all the downsides have been recognized or appreciated yet.

That all said, I don’t know how “everybody pays” woukd work for my block group. Most members are silent snd just receiving posts. It’s affordable here, but it woukd be difficult to round everyone up to pay. But we are grandfathered so I’m not worried in our particular case. Membership is critical for people on the block (information during emergencies, etc) so it’s important at this point that the group stay as is. The people in my cats group I don’t think would have a problem paying, and if they didn’t, it’s not as critical for them. But again, grandfathering is important to me because I want to avoid the perception that people are paying *to be in the grouo*, with all the inherent possible legal problems. (Paying *to join groups.io* is different and acceptable.)

On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:05 AM, Tanya's Feline CKD Website <helen@felineckd.com> wrote:

I agree. I am grandfathered at the moment and pay for the group out of my own pocket, which is OK by me. But I am a realist and I do not expect grandfathering to last forever, so what do I do then?

I could enable the donate button, but I can't see me ever reaching the $4000 I would need for my group as it currently stands (it will doubtless have even more members when grandfathering ends so the price will be even higher). So then I am in the awkward position of kicking people out, probably starting with the people whose cats died years ago and who just lurk; but who knows their true circumstances.

If everybody simply just got charged US$5 or equivalent (with a 30 day money back guarantee), there is no additional work for me and no awkward choosing who to keep and who to remove.

I don't really care about the free members either way, but if the option remained, I would choose the members who post regularly to help others.

Helen




--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

monamouroui
 

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 08:05 AM, Tanya's Feline CKD Website wrote:
So then I am in the awkward position of kicking people out, probably starting with the people whose cats died years ago and who just lurk; but who knows their true circumstances.
Tanya, I'm one of those lurkers. My cat had PKD. I joined you on Yahoo when he went into acute kidney failure at 8 yrs old. Despite my vet issuing him a execution order, with the help of your group and my new vet, he lived another 3 years. Unlike his replacement who developed FIP and passed after 3 months, not years, I was able to do something for Sparky to prolong his life.

I continue to lurk out of respect for you and your group. So that when people join, they can see there are thousands of others who have either gone through or are going through what they are experiencing. And of course in case one of my 4 new cats gets sick. I never considered it a burden, so might leave now that I realize this could be a problem for Mark and you to support all these lurkers.

The biggest issue I have with the $5/group group fee is it will limit how many groups someone might want to join. So not to complicate matters too much, I wonder if there could be a multi-group fee for those of us who join 10, 20, 30 groups?

Sara


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

I agree. I am grandfathered at the moment and pay for the group out of my own pocket, which is OK by me. But I am a realist and I do not expect grandfathering to last forever, so what do I do then?

I could enable the donate button, but I can't see me ever reaching the $4000 I would need for my group as it currently stands (it will doubtless have even more members when grandfathering ends so the price will be even higher). So then I am in the awkward position of kicking people out, probably starting with the people whose cats died years ago and who just lurk; but who knows their true circumstances.

If everybody simply just got charged US$5 or equivalent (with a 30 day money back guarantee), there is no additional work for me and no awkward choosing who to keep and who to remove.

I don't really care about the free members either way, but if the option remained, I would choose the members who post regularly to help others.

Helen


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

monamouroui
 

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 07:25 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
In large part that is why I suggested the introduction of a charge per Account in the previous thread on the subject. As then mentioned the sort of charge I was suggesting was in the order of $5 per annum (or its equivalent in other currencies) which (if you think about it) is less than it costs to buy a newspaper every day for a week. Hardly unaffordable I would suggest; Dave mentioned hobby - based groups and $5 per annum is certain to be a great deal less than people spend on their hobbies.
That is fine, but then charge it to everyone. The issue with me is the convoluted idea of having free member slots and paid member slots. Of having badges of "honor" showing who isn't paying and who is will create discord between members. Not to mention the incredible amount of additional work on the owners part.

Either every member pays to participate on a group. Or only owners pay to create, mold and manage a group. I will agree with Dave though, and maybe that won't matter, but you will see the flow of groups slow down with all of the new pricing structures.

But by all means, keep it simple.

Sara


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:15 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:
When the reality of the situation becomes clear to the wider world (the new plans currently
don't seem to be widely known outside here and GMF) I think a bombshell is about to hit Mark.
I have quoted just a part of Dave's post but I think it is all relevant. Although his last sentence is arguably apocalyptic it might just be true, even though I sincerely hope it isn't.

With all due respect to Mark I think that the proposed charging scheme is messy and unduly complex, not improved by the addition of the Donate function. IMHO a large part of that messiness and complexity is down to the the intention of maintaining grandfather rights to all the Basic (free) groups created hitherto and I honestly believe that nice as though those rights are they are no longer sustainable, and will become even less so as time passes.

In large part that is why I suggested the introduction of a charge per Account in the previous thread on the subject. As then mentioned the sort of charge I was suggesting was in the order of $5 per annum (or its equivalent in other currencies) which (if you think about it) is less than it costs to buy a newspaper every day for a week. Hardly unaffordable I would suggest; Dave mentioned hobby - based groups and $5 per annum is certain to be a great deal less than people spend on their hobbies.

Some have argued that "people will leave if charged"; well... let them. Why should Mark or anyone else have to subsidise a group of people who expect a service such as Groups.io to be free in perpetuity? What right have freeloaders (for want of a better term) to more or less demand that Premium or Enterprise Groups pay for them for ever? 

To me such an expectation is nothing short of outrageous. I honestly believe that an "Account Charge" is the cleanest and best way forward, ensuring that Groups.io has sufficient income for the future; OK - it might need to be "nuanced" even if that increases the complexity a bit, but I still cannot see a better way of ensuring Groups.io's solid financing.

Chris


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

 

Duane,

No, I'm on Central time (verified setting) as I mentioned a bit
earlier
Oops, so I was confused.

Now I remember. I got distracted when I was thinking of SQUIRREL ...
...
...
... changing my time display format to 24-hours.

Alas. No joy.

03:05 while on Eastern, 02:00 while on central. Same as Mark's result.

Edge Version 87.0.664.75 (Official build) (64-bit), Win10 Pro Build 19041.746 - not that I think either of those could matter.

Shal


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

Malcolm Austen
 

I'm afraid it isn't fixed for the instance I'm looking at Mark. I tried all the reloads, with <ctrl>, to no avail so when I shut down last night I allowed ccleaner to do a full clear-out of cache and cookies. The issue is still there this morning - one event in the [sogvols] groups scheduled for 15:00 UTC but showing in the feed for UTC logins as being at 07:00.

Keep safe, Malcolm.

-- 
Malcolm Austen <malcolm.austen@...>

On 14/01/2021 21:58:00, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

This has been fixed now. You may need to do a force reload (hold down the shift key while clicking the browser reload button).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Special Notice/Special Message - consistent terminology #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

Owners and Mods have an optional check-box to send a message as a Special Notice and Hashtags also have a Special check-box that uses the term 'special notice'.  Any use of these though shows up on the Activity Log as 'special message'. Could we get some consistency in the terminology please?

Thanks
Andy


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

Dave Sergeant
 

This discussion keeps going in the various threads and there seems no
easy answer. Whatever, and appreciating that Mark has to make ends
meet, it seems GIO is no longer the preferred home for many hobbyist
groups that just want somewhere to chat. The 100 member limit is too
low for many of these groups and most of them are unable to fund more.
When GIO surfaced a few years ago many of us queried how it could
function with no funding from the free groups and that has now become
apparent. Grandfathered groups cannot be considered immune whatever
assurances are made. I used to recommend GIO as a home for those
looking for lists, I can no longer do this. When the reality of the
situation becomes clear to the wider world (the new plans currently
don't seem to be widely known outside here and GMF) I think a bombshell
is about to hit Mark.

Dave


http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: #suggestion Moderators should be able to Reply to or Forward a message of 'importance' and tag it "Special Interest" in the process #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 03:14 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
a message sent as a Special Notice (the usual way, New Topic with the checkbox checked) can be replied to by members, and those replies come through as special also.
I just tested this in one of my subgroups and a reply to a Special Notice by a member account does not come through with the [Special] subject tag and is listed on the Activity Log as 'sent message' as opposed to 'sent special message'.

Regards
Andy


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

Donald,

I believe it morphed into an optional group sponsorship approach where
an owner could enable it to let members donate to pay for a premium
group.
Actually, I believe this #suggestion is still under consideration.

Donations towards group fees was a separate suggestion, made by a few people (with varying details):
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27638
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27610
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25957
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25931

As well as multiple expressions of support for the idea of donation (Sponsoring) by members made in the original Pricing Changes topic.

Shal


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

Duane
 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:36 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'm not sure why you're seeing it in Central time if Duane's account is Pacific time.
No, I'm on Central time (verified setting) as I mentioned a bit earlier - https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27918.

Duane


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

 

Duane,

Jan 19, 2021 00:05 This is the hashtag event #reminder
I have 24 hour time chosen, in case that makes any difference.
That would be correct if your account is Pacific time (UTC-0800).

The event is set at 2:05 am Central time (UTC-0600).
My normal account (UTC-0800) sees 12:05 am
an a test account (UTC-0500) sees 3:05 am

All correct. Unless I'm /very/ confused.

Mark,

I logged in as you and it appears as 02:05am in the feed, which
matches the event itself. If that's the event, are you still seeing
something different?
I'm not sure why you're seeing it in Central time if Duane's account is Pacific time. Maybe a weirdness in your test harness?

Shal


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

Duane
 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 09:01 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Is this the Shal's Test 'This is the hashtag test #reminder' event? I logged in as you and it appears as 02:05am in the feed, which matches the event itself. If that's the event, are you still seeing something different?
Yes, it is.  On the feed, I see

Jan 19, 2021 00:05 This is the hashtag event #reminder (linked of course)
I have 24 hour time chosen, in case that makes any difference.

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: #suggestion Moderators should be able to Reply to or Forward a message of 'importance' and tag it "Special Interest" in the process #suggestion

 

Dan,

I proposed a modification that would allow a Moderator - with
permission, be given the opportunity to recognize an item that should
be a Special Notice - and be able to Reply or Forward (to the Group)
any item that comes through.
Possibly this could be implemented by adding an item to the More menu: "Resend this Topic as a Special Notice".

There are a couple of potential gotcha's in that implementation.

First is the word "Resend" - I'm saying that the topic would be resent to all members (excluding No Email) not just those on Special Notices. In that way it is not different from your Copy/Paste method.

One reason to be clear about this is that a Special notice goes out with a subject prefix "[Special]" to catch the member's attention and/or activate an email filter. Another reason is that Special notices are sent both inside a Digest and as an Individual Message, for members on Digest Delivery.

Second is that word "Topic" above. IIRC a message sent as a Special Notice (the usual way, New Topic with the checkbox checked) can be replied to by members, and those replies come through as special also. So what I'm saying here is that if Topic you apply this command on has replies already, those would be resent also.

Currently, the only way to do this is to 'hijack', then Copy the
original message and create a new message from the Moderators own
address, then Paste the original message into a New Message and send
it on. Credit to the Originator is lost this way - if nothing else.
So that suggests another implementation, add an item to the More Menu:
"Copy this Message to a New Topic".

This would be effectively the same as your Copy and Paste manually, but it would copy also the original message's From information (and possibly Date/Time?) into the New Topic composition page. From there you could check the Special Notice box and send it out.

This has the advantage (or disadvantage, however you see it) of isolating a single message to be resent, rather than potentially a whole topic.

I hope this helps (rather than confuses) some issues for you and Mark.

Shal


moderated Re: Group Sponsorships #update

 

Mark, I really like this new "sponsorship" option. In my large/active premium (hobbyist) group, I had no difficulty getting contributors for the annual fee at renewal time, but going through PayPal to my individual account was not ideal. I did not want to set up a Stripe account in order to use the previous donation function. My smaller groups do not need premium functions, but it is nice that individuals can make donations there if they wish. And optional "donations" to a particular group or groups should be more palatable to my members, vs paying the GIO organization per se just to come through the door, even if only a small yearly amount.

I also appreciate the fact that GIO is absorbing the processing fees, which makes things much more simple.  

If needed, my large "legacy" group would likely be willing to _voluntarily_ pay a higher amount. An additional "donation" if you will, in addition to the billed rate. I do hope that there are enough new groups that  "grandfathering" does not need to be phased out.  Linda N


moderated Re: #bug event times in /feed are all 8 hours out #bug

 

Hi Duane,

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 2:45 PM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 03:57 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
This has been fixed now.
Still not working here.  There's an event set for CST (which I'm on), but the feed is still showing PST (same for events set to PST)  I've tried Shift+Reload as well as CTRL+F5.


Is this the Shal's Test 'This is the hashtag test #reminder' event? I logged in as you and it appears as 02:05am in the feed, which matches the event itself. If that's the event, are you still seeing something different?

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Pricing change date change #update

 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 6:22 PM Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:
The page https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27191 has a confusing mix of dates.  It says February 2 near the top, but January 18 in four other places in the same message.

Sorry, fixed. All dates are Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

Donald Hellen
 

Mark . . .

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:02:26 -0800, "Mark M" <mark@mmurphy.net> wrote:

I've completely given up trying to understand the complications and rules of the paid user proposal being discussed here, and I believe most group owners would do the same. I really did try.
I should have included this message from Mark:

group sponsorship:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27874


Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main

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