Date   

moderated Re: Bug, peculiarity, I don't know exactly how to categorize this . . .

 

Hi,
Ah, that's because I (the owner of that list) approved that message. Sorry about that.
Cheers,
Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com
To: beta@groups.io
Date sent: Thu, 18 May 2017 13:10:52 -0700
Subject: [beta] Bug, peculiarity, I don't know exactly how to categorize this . . .

One of the groups I routinely participate on is the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users ( https://win10.groups.io/g/win10 ) group. 혻I have moderator privileges on that group for the specific purpose of archive maintenance, which means in this case merging topics that get accidentally split due to accidental changes to subject lines. 혻I add that only because it might make a difference.

That group has two subgroups, "List Matters" and "Insiders" for talk about matters related to list moderation and similar and for those who are on the Windows 10 Insider program.

When I go to the Subgroups page, the "List Matters" group is shown under the heading,혻*Subgroups You Belong To* , while "Insiders" is under,혻*Subgroups You Can Join* . 혻This is correct because I long ago subscribed to/joined the "List Matters" subgroup but have never done so for "Insiders."

A short while ago I sent a message via email to the main address for the "Insiders" group, which I full well expected would bounce back to me because I have never joined it and the web interface clearly indicates that. 혻 Well, lo and behold!, that message posted.

Why on earth would it do this? 혻Even as a moderator for the parent group I would think that anything that the Groups.io interface shows as being a subgroup I could join would result in a bounce back to me. 혻When I am looking at said message at this very moment through the web interface, with myself logged in, there is no reply option on it, which I would expect as well since I have never joined.

Something seems to be slightly off here.
--
*Brian*



혻 혻 혻 혻*Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not혻* *always like being taught.*

혻 혻 혻 혻 혻 혻 혻~ *Winston Churchill*


moderated Bug, peculiarity, I don't know exactly how to categorize this . . .

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

One of the groups I routinely participate on is the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group.  I have moderator privileges on that group for the specific purpose of archive maintenance, which means in this case merging topics that get accidentally split due to accidental changes to subject lines.  I add that only because it might make a difference.

That group has two subgroups, "List Matters" and "Insiders" for talk about matters related to list moderation and similar and for those who are on the Windows 10 Insider program.

When I go to the Subgroups page, the "List Matters" group is shown under the heading, Subgroups You Belong To, while "Insiders" is under, Subgroups You Can Join.  This is correct because I long ago subscribed to/joined the "List Matters" subgroup but have never done so for "Insiders."

A short while ago I sent a message via email to the main address for the "Insiders" group, which I full well expected would bounce back to me because I have never joined it and the web interface clearly indicates that.   Well, lo and behold!, that message posted.

Why on earth would it do this?  Even as a moderator for the parent group I would think that anything that the Groups.io interface shows as being a subgroup I could join would result in a bounce back to me.  When I am looking at said message at this very moment through the web interface, with myself logged in, there is no reply option on it, which I would expect as well since I have never joined.

Something seems to be slightly off here.
--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

Our latest TOU  is available at all times.  If we update it we special notice all members informing them that the new ones are in force and if they disagree they must resign.

We were fortunate that a contract lawyer member defined to overall TOU gratis. And was after he was banned from a Yahoo group for asking a  valid question that was not against the terms of that group but was counter to the unspoken direction of the qroup.  Never get a lawyer angry at the way you operate  your group.  He demanded in a postal letter, delivered to thegroup owner, that all of his original messages and copies contained in replies be removed from the group.  This was legal under Yahoo's TOU but impossible to do practically without destroying the group.

The original group  owner quit after defining another person as owner.

Quite messy.

Bob  Bellizzi


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 10:19 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
J, please point me to the original message, and I'll add code to remove it.

Mark,

Thanks. Will do. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:27 am, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
Part of that application requires them to open and approve our TOU

Our group does the same. However, the TOU changes from time to time in our group (and no-doubt some others), and members may lose (or delete) their original emails. I think that having the TOU easily accessible at any time would be best. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

There seems to be two separate lines of argument going on here.

The first is about tacky message trailers added by antivirus, etc and, btw, disclaimer trailers.

The second morphed out of that and back into Terms of Use and how to implement it.

On the tacky crap I agree that groups.io should not be expected to be responsible for removing all such objectionable crap.  It's a waste of critical resources that are best reserved for important duties such as bug removal, updates & etc. unless Mark has excess resources to devote to it.

On Terms of Use there seems to be two differing lines of how to implement. 

One is to put that information on the Home page of the group.  This ultimately fails to capture the attention of those desirous of joining the group.  As most of us seemingly always do, we ignore actually reading this information and follow through on joining the group.

A second suggestion seemed to expect groups.io to provide us with a means to implement TOU within the settings area of the group.  Again, please consider that groups.io has been most responsive to all of our bug and improvement requests in addition to Mark's self motivated and unrelenting program of improvement.  Also, and just as important is the availability in groups.io of the option to have absolutely free use of a great product.  While Yahoo provided free groups, they kept us at their mercy, were totally unresponsive and seemed bent to follow a path designed to totally discourage groups and groups.io is diametrically oppositely polarized.

Long ago we decided that the best process for controlling entry to our group was to move the induction process out of the group and into a process that we could control.  

If someone tries to join our restricted group online they are sent a message that they must complete an application at our website which must be approved by us.

Part of that application requires them to open and approve our TOU.  They cannot proceed if they do no do that.  If they decline, we send them to a thank you and sorry to see you go page and that's the end of it.

If they agree to the TOU the application form is submitted to the Owners for review and, if approved, an invitation to join is sent (from a free group) to the person or (from a paid group) a direct subscribe is performed and an initial instructions email sent to the applicant.

This allows us to totally control the process and frees groups.io (Mark) time for more productive development.

We consider groups.io a critical resource and strive to work our problems within the group prior to asking for further proliferation of options and flags, & etc. unless there is no possible way to implement a perceived need without reguesting a change in group.io

Bob Bellizzi, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation



moderated Re: Continuing problems with text editing: Did drastic surgery to remove imbedded table in this message

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Thanks Mark.  That's all one can ask for!
--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

Hi All,

Those ads do not add anything to the archives, and in fact detract from them. I am pro-automatic removal of them, and we do remove some of them. Unfortunately, it's a never ending battle; the ads change often. J, please point me to the original message, and I'll add code to remove it.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Continuing problems with text editing: Did drastic surgery to remove imbedded table in this message

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:


               I presume Mark is still checking in here on a routine basis, and I'm going to repeat a request here in case it's something that can be "turned on" as a feature in this editor:  Please make it split long block quotes if one places one's cursor in the middle and hits enter.

I have been trying to figure out if this is possible with this editor. I agree that it's needed. So far my research hasn't turned up an answer, but I'm still working on it.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Continuing problems with text editing: Did drastic surgery to remove imbedded table in this message

 

Brian,

I presume Mark is still checking in here on a routine
basis, and I'm going to repeat a request here in case it's something
that can be "turned on" as a feature in this editor: Please make it
split long block quotes if one places one's cursor in the middle and
hits enter.
Meanwhile, a work-around is to un-click the Blockquote format button (removing that style from the whole quote) then re-click it on the part(s) you want to keep. Example here:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/1753

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

By the way, I'm definitely in support of those who wish to have these promotions at the end of messages that have absolutely no user content to them removed, but I'm not sure that I support the group/forums software doing this.  But, of course, you know by now that my general approach is that we give the user the tools necessary to allow them to stop the generation of said material when that's possible.

I don't think it's unreasonable, once that information has been shared with any given user, to reject their messages if they refuse to turn off a feature that they can turn off that makes those come though.

The only exception I might make in that regard is for folks who are writing from a work e-mail address where those God-awful disclaimers that are 50 lines long that no one ever reads and amount to common sense to begin with are attached.  Those are generally not under the individual's control and never will be.

I turn things like the "from my iPhone/Android device," "scanned by {insert antivirus here},"  as soon as I'm aware they're present and will dig through settings if necessary to determine how.  I realize that some less sophisticated users really cannot do that digging, but step-by-step instructions on how to do this are already out on the web and creating a "canned message" you can send with links on how to do this with a list of products that gets updated as necessary is not difficult.

If a user chooses to ignore that "strict cultural request" after it has been clearly made and assistance has been offered on how to do it, well . . .
--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,.

         I will absolutely admit that there are aspects of group culture that are ineffable.  But some are, and you've given a good example of one of them from your own group.

         I was, for a brief time, a moderator on a group on this site that I promptly stopped being a moderator for once I very quickly determined that I could not possibly predict what the group owner, who asked me to be a moderator, wanted,  That was bad for me and for at least one other moderator who resigned.  That taught me my lesson about "no black boxes" even if the box is "charcoal gray" with very minimal rules at the outset.  Some idea of a group's mission and philosophy (and I know you have this) needs to be an essential part of setting up a group.  Even if it's just a social group a description of "for whom" (as most have a target membership) and "about what" (which may be "anything that would not be considered offensive in mixed company") should be a basic requirement.

--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: Continuing problems with text editing: Did drastic surgery to remove imbedded table in this message

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 02:36 pm, Jennifer Christian wrote:
The hamburger stack seems AWFULLY SUBTLE -- I doubt most editors will ever find it. 

 Jennifer,

              I agree with your first assessment, but not necessarily with your second.   The "hamburger stack" menu button has been evolving into a de facto standard over the last several years.  If you start looking around with the intention of finding it I think you'll be surprised at just how often you do find it.

              But I realize that we're still in the era where users who very seldom, if ever, use the advanced features of anything or tweak settings may have no idea about the meaning of the "hamburger stack" button, which is typically a menu button of some sort but is sometimes a direct control as it is here.

               I presume Mark is still checking in here on a routine basis, and I'm going to repeat a request here in case it's something that can be "turned on" as a feature in this editor:  Please make it split long block quotes if one places one's cursor in the middle and hits enter.

                There are many times when a "point-by-point" response to only some points in a previous post, or even all of them, is wanted and keeping the points being responded to for context in the response itself is wanted.  If you can't "break out" your reply lines by placing your cursor at a given point, hitting enter to split the quote, and type in new material then things become significantly more complicated for the person doing the reply.   I have, when no other option exists, used font and color to separate out new content from quotation when one cannot get the block quote to split in the WYSIWYG editor, but given that many groups on Groups.io normalize text that method is far from guaranteed to work and it makes differentiating material for a reader almost impossible.  [Heck, my signature gets normalized on this group.]
--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 08:17 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
My point is, and I do not know if it applies specifically here, so don't take this as in any way personal, that many group owners and moderators make no effort to actually make clear, up front and before a person joins a group, what the rules and the culture are.  I know that there is a degree of difficulty in doing either,

Right, which is why I requested a special clickable item at the bottom of the left sidebar for a group's own TOU or guidelines. :)

You can't really make the culture or the rules clear before they join, but you can do it as soon as possible afterwards.

My group does have a statement on the home page that we are "strongly geared towards evidence-based medicine," which is meant to deter people bent on talking about and giving snake oil to their cats. The rest of the rules - including not mentioning veterinarians by name (to avoid the aforementioned possible libel) and other specifics - are given to them in their welcome message. But still, the unspoken cultural norms of the group, or any group, is just something that they have to learn as they go along.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

P.S.:  I'll be darned if I know how that double top-quote occurred, but that was definitely not intentional!!
--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:53 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:45 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:
I particularly frown on moderators on some groups
who edit messages before approving them

Haha. I particularly frown on people who "particularly frown" on moderators running their groups the way they see fit. Besides, nobody said anything about moderating people's posts. That said, as a matter of fact, our group happens to do it to remove things like potentially libelous statements about people mentioned by their full names. Etc.

Different groups have different policies. I tend to stay away from
groups with moderators like this.

Fine by me!

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

 On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:53 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:45 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:
I particularly frown on moderators on some groups
who edit messages before approving them

Haha. I particularly frown on people who "particularly frown" on moderators running their groups the way they see fit. Besides, nobody said anything about moderating people's posts. That said, as a matter of fact, our group happens to do it to remove things like potentially libelous statements about people mentioned by their full names. Etc.


Different groups have different policies. I tend to stay away from
groups with moderators like this.

Fine by me!

 Sorry for the long top quote, but I wanted to do a split in the middle but keep having issues getting that to work on the Groups.io web interface.  I'm used to having a block quote "split" if I hit enter in the middle of it and that's not happening.

Both contributors have very valid points.

My point is, and I do not know if it applies specifically here, so don't take this as in any way personal, that many group owners and moderators make no effort to actually make clear, up front and before a person joins a group, what the rules and the culture are.  I know that there is a degree of difficulty in doing either, but the "I'll moderate as I see fit" without a potential member having any idea of what "seeing fit" constitutes is really quite unfair.  Group culture and moderation policy should not be a black box and the documentation regarding same can be very informal and updated as new situations warrant it.  A good example of what I think is "adequate but not too much," and this is for a massively complex forum, is:  https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forum-rules/   There was a recent incident and my lobbying in response to same got this particular rule added because the situation had not arisen in the past and, thus, had not been addressed:  "If you have questions regarding homework, we will only help you with general concepts. If you are looking for a complete solution or answer, we will most likely just delete your post."

Owners and moderators have the absolute right to do as they see fit with their groups (and sometimes suffer the consequences of having them fall apart when they behave as capricious martinets) but potential members have every right to have some idea of the culture they're thinking about entering in to.

I've participated on groups that were entirely unmoderated through ones where every message from every member is always moderated, but I knew about those extremes and, in cases where it mattered, what came in between because a statement of forum culture and rules existed.

Although I'm probably sure to be blasted for it my opinion is that it's the least a group owner can do to write up an initial statement of group purpose, basic rules, and to update same as unforeseen situations occur that warrant it so that potential new members have something they can read.  It should be easy to access and, ideally [and I know that this may not be under the control of an owner/moderator] be presented almost as a "terms of service" is presented as part of the enrollment process.

--
Brian

 

       Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

             ~ Winston Churchill


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

Dave Sergeant
 

In Avast and I assume also in AVG it is very easy to disable these
messages in outgoing emails in its user interface. The default is on
but it is trivial to turn it off. A gentle reminder to members, maybe
telling them how to find it in the settings, would remove a lot of
them. I feel they are pointless since any spammer can put such a line
in a message and expect you to believe it.

Dave

On 17 May 2017 at 23:49, Shal Farley wrote:

I disapprove of them and often as not will delete them from pending
messages (sorry, I'm not very disciplined about this - it depends on the
group, my mood, and how busy I am).

I have gone so far as to ask members to see what they can do to turn
those messages off in their email interface, or choose another
interface. But I'm only that brash in groups where I know the members
personally (classmates, friends, family).

http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

Dave,

Why should groups.io be removing things put into emails by user's
valid software.
Because it makes for a better user experience when other members aren't shown these same ads time and again.

I don't particularly approve of these 'checked as virus free'
signatures ...
I disapprove of them and often as not will delete them from pending messages (sorry, I'm not very disciplined about this - it depends on the group, my mood, and how busy I am).

I have gone so far as to ask members to see what they can do to turn those messages off in their email interface, or choose another interface. But I'm only that brash in groups where I know the members personally (classmates, friends, family).

... but they were put there for a purpose and are a valid
content of emails.
We can agree to disagree about how valid they are. As far as I'm concerned they are nothing more than ads - hitchhiking spam - and their purpose is to sell me (and my members) something.

Moderation of messages should be just about stopping offensive and
clearly spam postings getting through,
Most of what follows, and some of the above, is really off-topic for this group, which is about improving the product, and should instead be taken up in a group that is about advice for moderators. That said...

Moderation should be about whatever the group's policies and culture dictate. My style (intrusiveness) of moderation is very different in different types of groups, and is usually "about" different types of undesirable material.

it should not be changing the content of messages themselves which is
verging on censorship.
I tend not to touch the posting member's content, but content that got stuffed into the message automatically (excess bottom-quotes, footers, ads, and the like) I treat as fair game.

In groups with public archives I'm on the lookout for the accidental inclusion of private personal information, and will overwrite that with "[redacted]", or reject the message depending on circumstance. Even if the group's archives are members-only, I tend to treat them as semi-public if the group's membership is unrestricted.

I do make a practice of including a note in the message when I edit it while pending.

Different groups have different policies. I tend to stay away from
groups with moderators like this.
Absolutely your prerogative. It relates to something I started saying ages ago in Yahoo Groups about group management: "one size does NOT fit all".

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:58 pm, Jim Poston wrote:
I'm not sending that crap out on my list.

Hear, hear. (Or is that "here, here"? I'm never sure LOL) 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: strip out another automatic advertisement? #suggestion

 

On 18 May 2017 at 6:45, Dave Sergeant wrote:

Why should groups.io be removing things put into emails by user's valid
software. I don't particularly approve of these 'checked as virus free'
signatures but they were put there for a purpose and are a valid content
of emails.
They don't belong in my groups. All messages sent through my groups
are virus-free. We don't need to see an ad for an anti-virus program, or a
tablet, or a smartphone. One guy's messages came with a 400-word
disclaimer about it being a confidential message and should be deleted if I
was not the intended recipient. I'm not sending that crap out on my list.


--
Jim
Poston@vch-nv.us

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