Date   

moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

Hi,

To add support for Brian’s argument: this is exactly the reason why I require unanimous consent from members before dissolving one of my groups (Win10 forum), with members providing justifications as to why the group should be closed. This procedure was set in place and written in the books from the day that group moved its operation to Groups.IO.

As for my overall opinion of the discussion taking place: I think it is the responsibility of members to inform both leaders (owners and moderators) and Mark and other staff regarding copyright violations, with decisions left up to owners. There are words and phrases in messages from people on various groups that’ll trigger owners to take action, especially if violation of terms of service is suspected. But I think a better approach is educating members about being vigilant and testing their conscience and ethical stances regarding things they post, especially if it could run into legal problems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:21 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 05:04 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

To that I would say, with all due respect, tough shit. If I want to delete my group at any time, for a good reason or for no reason, that is my absolute right and privilege, even if I want to do it "maliciously," as you put it.

And to that, I would say, you are gravely mistaken.   A group owner is nothing more than a group's originator and overseer until or unless they no longer want that role.  A group is, quite literally, owned by its members.

If a group owner wishes to withdraw entirely that's entirely their call.  But they cannot dissolve the group if someone else is willing to step in to the owner role.  Or I guess I should say that it should be an official rule of setting up a group that the owner cannot unilaterally decide to dissolve a group if anyone in the group is willing to assume the owner role.

You have no absolute rights that involve potentially hundreds of group members other than yourself just because you happen to be the founding member.

I personally despise the terminology used here of "group owner" because it creates just the attitudes that you're espousing and that I reject entirely.  Groups have a life of their own that is completely disconnected from the group's founder and I also don't believe that anyone, ever, gets to literally erase the historical record.  Once you've posted to a group, whether public or private, those posts are not your property to do with as you see fit.
 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    
~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 

            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 05:04 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
To that I would say, with all due respect, tough shit. If I want to delete my group at any time, for a good reason or for no reason, that is my absolute right and privilege, even if I want to do it "maliciously," as you put it.
And to that, I would say, you are gravely mistaken.   A group owner is nothing more than a group's originator and overseer until or unless they no longer want that role.  A group is, quite literally, owned by its members.

If a group owner wishes to withdraw entirely that's entirely their call.  But they cannot dissolve the group if someone else is willing to step in to the owner role.  Or I guess I should say that it should be an official rule of setting up a group that the owner cannot unilaterally decide to dissolve a group if anyone in the group is willing to assume the owner role.

You have no absolute rights that involve potentially hundreds of group members other than yourself just because you happen to be the founding member.

I personally despise the terminology used here of "group owner" because it creates just the attitudes that you're espousing and that I reject entirely.  Groups have a life of their own that is completely disconnected from the group's founder and I also don't believe that anyone, ever, gets to literally erase the historical record.  Once you've posted to a group, whether public or private, those posts are not your property to do with as you see fit.
 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 07:43 am, Everett Kaser wrote:
a single 'owner' shouldn't be able to destroy everything the group has created without just cause.
Yes, they absolutely should be able to. Including documents that I myself have singelhandedly written and posted to the site; information that I myself have researched and posted to the site; a membership that was gathered by me and attached to me because of my expertise in the area; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc etc. The notion that deleting a group should anything at all to do with a "judgment call" by Mark is ridiculous. 

One thing I agree with here is the suggestion to "disable" rather than permanently delete a group for some period of time (perhaps a few days), subject to undoing the deletion ONLY by the group owner's express wishes. Nothing else.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: RSVP Features #cal-invite

Douglas M.
 

My first test attempts at adding an RSVP event did NOT get this line added when they went out.  After a few tries it started appearing so I deleted that initial inquiry.  Not sure if it was operator error (of course not!) or a bug that showed up originally. The calendar listings for those tests look correct with RSVP choices now but it is after the event so I don't know if a message would now include that line.  Thanks Mark for the fine work you do on this stuff!!!!!


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

Douglas M.
 

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 01:46 am, Shal Farley wrote:
Generally I'm not a fan of web forms as the only way to contact support

I am all for an easy reporting system that can go either to group owners/moderators or the groups.io but I like it to be a web-based form or process.  This way it is not so simple that minor complaints or a member in a bad mood that day can't just click a button and make a flippant report.  Filling out a form makes the complainant organize their thoughts and evaluate or clarify exactly what they are complaining about.  If a member really thinks it needs to be responded to, they will take the time to do it right.


moderated Text Size for "An RSVP is requested" #cal-notice #cal-reminder

Douglas M.
 

When the notice of an event is sent out either when first created or as a reminder all of the event info (except the description of the event which can be marked-up) appears as basic text.  There doesn't seem to be any way to adjust how that text is formatted.  It's a bit weird looking for some of the text (the description only) to be different. This is mainly a problem if I include a detailed event description on an event with an RSVP requested.  The formatted text of the description is followed by the line "An RSVP is requestedView Event." in plain text which is often smaller so it gets lost and missed. I'd like to be able to adjust the size and look of that magically-created line/message.  Perhaps being able to format all of the calendar notice or reminder would be useful so it could be doctored to look like a fun, formal, or otherwise eye-catching invitation to the event. Also, in a perfect world, the emailed notice or reminder would include buttons labeled Will Attend, Will Not Attend, and Not Sure so one click on the correct button would be all it takes to go to the page and record your RSVP.  Being able to change the choices to yes, no, I'll try, maybe, or other text would be a bonus.

I should note that for me one of the biggest selling points for groups.io vs other services is the integration of the calendar and an RSVP system.  It sets it apart from those other services out there and was enough for me to choose the paid version to have that capacity and keep paying beyond that first month (when everyone wants the ability to transfer members from Y! or other sources to to add them directly then go back to using it for free).

Thoughts?  Comments?


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 04:48 pm, Everett Kaser wrote:
Imagine that Bob or J_CatLady got dementia (heaven forefend, just an example) and, in a moment of irrationality, decided to delete the group.
To that I would say, with all due respect, tough shit. If I want to delete my group at any time, for a good reason or for no reason, that is my absolute right and privilege, even if I want to do it "maliciously," as you put it.

Of COURSE a group would be nothing without its members. That means that group owners must do a good job in making their members happy and satisfying their needs in whatever drove them to join the group, or they will leave. 

" those two questions could become required answers before group deletion occurs."

No, they should not. If I want to delete my group, it's absolutely nobody's business but my own. If some former group members want to get together and create their own group afterwards, they are certainly able and welcome to do that. But no group member has the right to force a group owner to continue a group.

I really hope you're kidding.

(BTW, block-quote bug: the block-quote button no longer works for a section of text if there is any text below it.)
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

Bob and J_CatLady:

I don't mean to demean or diminish your ownership of your groups or the work that you do with them. Yes, there will always be exceptions to any generalization.

However, what I'm trying to get at is that, for most groups, the 'group' is useless without the group members. Therefore, the group members DO have some "ownership" in terms of what they contribute to the group. I'm NOT suggesting that "regular members" should normally be able to "take over ownership" of your group.

Imagine that Bob or J_CatLady got dementia (heaven forefend, just an example) and, in a moment of irrationality, decided to delete the group. Think of the impact that would have on the members of your groups. What I was suggesting was merely a way for Mark/Groups.io to recover from an owner accidentally or maliciously deleting 'their' group. Should that happen, I envision a method for the group members to petition Groups.io for resuscitation under a new ownership. It would then (possible scenario) be up to Groups.io to attempt to contact the prior owners for an explanation for 1) Why they deleted the group, and 2) Why group ownership should not be passed on to other responsible group members. In fact, those two questions could become required answers before group deletion occurs. If contact with the prior owner(s) is non-responsive or if the responses don't seem reasonable, then in the judgement of Groups.io, the group could be resuscitated under new ownership.

Everett


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

Sarah k Alawami
 

I agree. My email signature when I write from my phone says 

Sent from aquamail

But I can't in my case remove it as I'm using the free version and right now I don't want to pay for an email program on my phone if I only have 1 account on there that I'm  checking every day, or at least trying to check every day. Lol!

I do agree that putting someone on moderation because they have the "sent from my [insert device] is ridiculous and brakes the personality of the person and email. I'm not saying it right, but I hope I'm still understood.
On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:08 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 03:04 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I would have only remove
I like that phrasing. ;)
In any case, I humbly request that they be left in. I think they're on an entirely different plane from the antivirus ads.
 
--
J
 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 03:11 pm, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
  I have found more than one person who would jump in to answer an important question by saying "I think I read that Dr. X might have said XYZ" which is pure conjecture, may be dangerously false info or likely to be misinterpreted.  When pressed in a private email to be very specific when responding to a question about our common issue, they would continue the practice and also argue with the decision of the owners and senior moderators.
I also run a group (on a cat disease) in which this occurs, and which I, too, find very dangerous. We have very strict and strictly enforced guidelines in our group regarding facts (though none of them have to do, I have to say in reference to the other thread, with what I consider petty issues like typos, poor grammar, or iPhone signatures), and these are for the sake of the health and safety of critically ill cats whose owners may be reading the posts and relying on them. 

I think your running of your group is a great model and I'm not surprised you are successful. I plan to read your post in greater detail later and consider some of your policies for my own group. We are still very small, but we are international and growing all the time.

And I fully agree that the group owners do "own" theirs group in an important sense.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Dealing with Terms of Service violations/other complaints

Bob Bellizzi
 

I;ve reviewed a bunch of messages in this thread and have some comments based on our groups' experiences and operating procedures.
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 07:43 am, Everett wrote:
Again, a group is not just the owners

Sorry but I take exception to this statement as over-generalization.
While some groups may be more community property than not and some moderators/owners may really not "own" their group, in some cases the only reason for the continued existence of a group is the fact that it's serves a good cause and is also controlled closely by the owners.

Most rare and also potentially fatal disease groups continue to exist because of the owners wish and need to help others and there is a continuing need for good information.  By now you might have guessed that I include myself in this category.  Two of us from different ends of California met online and started such a group which has continued from e-groups through e-circles and Yahoo into groups.io.  It continues to exist because
  We continue to maintain a set of standards for message conternt
  We have a comprehensive request to join form requiring more than one way to validate a person's information
     Strong terms and conditions, which must be agreed to prior to being subscribed, encourage good content and discourages trolls and other malefactors.  They also define what is and is not acceptable conduct/messaging.  In the T& C:
    The Complaint procedure is spelled out and also the fact that the decision of the Owners and Senior Moderators is final.
  We have Moderators' Duties and responsibilities are formalized and exceptions are sent to Senior Moderators for decision making.  
  We also have another class of people called Mentors who act as diplomats for newer or more needy members because they have important knowledge on an in-person level. Mentor's duties and responsibilities are also formalized.
Candidates for Moderators and Mentors are carefully selected during an online meeting of owners and Moderators prior to formally asking if they would be interested.  If they are interested they receive a fact sheet with their duties and responsibilities and are encouraged to be silent observers online but to let us know what they would do in situations that occur.
There is much more but I wanted to give you enough of the picture so you know where I'm coming from.   While it might sound Draconian, our group is the largest and longest continually functioning one for our  genetic disease.
 
I think in order to  be a proper owner one must be almost continually "plugged in" at some level or else one and the group might not be considered of vital importance to the owners.  Even if I were on vacation I would be pinged by one of the several moderators as soon as a complaint appeared, especially if it were to escalate up to groups.io ownership.

 My opinion about whether a complaint to groups.io should be forwarded to the owners being complained about is YES, one must know who is making the complaint.  Complainants fall in different categories.
  Some are simply chronic complainers and are most likely to just whine on the message board.
  I have found more than one person who would jump in to answer an important question by saying "I think I read that Dr. X might have said XYZ" which is pure conjecture, may be dangerously false info or likely to be misinterpreted.  When pressed in a private email to be very specific when responding to a question about our common issue, they would continue the practice and also argue with the decision of the owners and senior moderators.  Of course they solved themselves as a problem by unsubscribing in a huff.
All moderators are kept in the knowledge loop about issues, decisions and the basis for the decisions.
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 03:04 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I would have only remove
I like that phrasing. ;)
In any case, I humbly request that they be left in. I think they're on an entirely different plane from the antivirus ads.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 3:02 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 03:00 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
It's always been on my todo list to automatically remove those lines ... perhaps I'll continue prioritizing other things and act like that was my plan all along. :-)
Haha.:)

Seriously, though: remove which lines? What if someone has changed it to "sent from my iPhone with assorted typos"? Will you remove those too, or just the vanilla "sent from my iPhone"? 
 
I would have only removed the default 'sent from my iPhone' line. If someone had changed it, I would assume they really wanted it to be a part of the message. If it's the default, I would guess that a large percentage of people don't care about it/just never bothered to figure out how to get rid of it.

Mark 


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 03:00 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
It's always been on my todo list to automatically remove those lines ... perhaps I'll continue prioritizing other things and act like that was my plan all along. :-)
Haha.:)

Seriously, though: remove which lines? What if someone has changed it to "sent from my iPhone with assorted typos"? Will you remove those too, or just the vanilla "sent from my iPhone"? 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

Hi All,

It's always been on my todo list to automatically remove those lines, I just haven't had a chance to do so. I guess I didn't think that removing them would be controversial. So perhaps I'll continue prioritizing other things and act like that was my plan all along. :-)

Mark

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 2:55 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
I find them helpful at best and harmless at worst.

And this is of course just my opinion, but I find the idea of putting someone on moderation because they haven't removed it absolutely abhorrent. Group members have enough legitimate things to worry about paying attention to in group guidelines. I would never dream of moderating someone for something like this, nor caring or complaining about anyone's typos (or punctuation errors - which, ironically, abounded in one of the complaining messages in this very thread).

Who cares? People should be civilized and adhere to important group guidelines. Groups.io should remove offensive "Avast antivirus" ads and the like. Members should be free to set their own signatures as they see fit, including whether or not they want to include the (sometimes helpful) fact that they're responding from an iPhone.

I'm done with this.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

I find them helpful at best and harmless at worst.

And this is of course just my opinion, but I find the idea of putting someone on moderation because they haven't removed it absolutely abhorrent. Group members have enough legitimate things to worry about paying attention to in group guidelines. I would never dream of moderating someone for something like this, nor caring or complaining about anyone's typos (or punctuation errors - which, ironically, abounded in one of the complaining messages in this very thread).

Who cares? People should be civilized and adhere to important group guidelines. Groups.io should remove offensive "Avast antivirus" ads and the like. Members should be free to set their own signatures as they see fit, including whether or not they want to include the (sometimes helpful) fact that they're responding from an iPhone.

I'm done with this.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

Duane
 

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 02:36 pm, J_Catlady wrote:


none of this has to do with "sent from my iPhone," which I think is in a
different logical category from the antivirus ads (etc.)
To me, they're all ads that don't need repeating ad nauseam.

Mark, it is a bit more work initially, but everyone on my groups has learned how to remove it. Most weren't even aware it was being added and appreciate knowing.

Duane


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

Donald Hellen
 

Mark,

It still matters. Some of us choose to use the small screen Androids
(think Galaxy S3). I actually have a tag line at the end of my emails
sent from my phone about that. I don't usually make mistakes but have
made a few.

With aging eyes it is easy to miss something on a small screen. I'm
not interested in subsidizing a phone over several years so I buy mine
outright and use a prepaid carrier (Boost) and pay less than 1/3 of
what most pay every month for unlimited talk and text, and 2.5 gig of
data, which I never go over. I'll stay with the smaller screen.

It's not safe to assume everyone is using the same sized screen as you
are, just as I can't assume everyone is using a state of the art
Windows OS, Linux OS, or the latest MAC OS. There are plenty of people
out there still using Windows XP. Not a good idea, of course.

Donald

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 19:31:56 +0000 (UTC), "Mark via Groups.Io"
<markrecktenwald=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I think it used to matter, when messages sent from a phone were composed on a tiny screen with poor resolution. It was a way of saying, "Excuse my mistakes, this is a quick reply on an ill-suited device." With the size and quality of the phone screens these days, I find it simply to be the person saying, "I am too lazy to take the time to compose a proper message so I am just going to blame it on my phone."
The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who
speak it. --George Orwell


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

 

Maybe. But none of this has to do with "sent from my iPhone," which I think is in a different logical category from the antivirus ads (etc.), and which I find helpful.

J

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mark via Groups.Io <markrecktenwald@...> wrote:
Blaming it on autocorrect just means that the sender is too busy (lazy) to be bothered with proof-reading before hitting send. That is an acceptable excuse when you sending someone a text message, but not when you are composing an email.

-- 
Mark



From: J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>
To: main@beta.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Hide "Sent from my "

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 01:41 pm, Mark wrote:
With the size and quality of the phone screens these days,
The size of the screen doesn't mitigate so-called autocorrect. ;)

--
J
 
Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.
I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu




--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Hide "Sent from my "

Mark
 

Blaming it on autocorrect just means that the sender is too busy (lazy) to be bothered with proof-reading before hitting send. That is an acceptable excuse when you sending someone a text message, but not when you are composing an email.

-- 
Mark



From: J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...>
To: main@beta.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Hide "Sent from my "

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 01:41 pm, Mark wrote:
With the size and quality of the phone screens these days,
The size of the screen doesn't mitigate so-called autocorrect. ;)

--
J
 
Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.
I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


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