Duane wrote:

1. The group Subject Tag wasn't added to the subject line of the
email.

Also missing from the monthly send was the group footer. I think that that, together with the group Subject Tag, would aid in the recipient's perception of the message as having been sent to the group rather than singling out him or her.

And that perception is also the reason to leave those items (tag, hashtag, and footer) off of the email when sent to specific members via the Members list. In that case send exactly the subject line that the moderator leaves or puts into the Subject field in the Send Message composition.

Shal

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https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

Mark-

Thanks. That is a bit of a disappointment. I guess FB doesn't make things easy.

Drew

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 03:15 am, Duane wrote:

Having a separate notice Subject, one under the "Send on join" checkbox and one under the "Send monthly" box would be the optimum option.

I agree that this would be the best, since the contexts are truly different. Allowing a separate title for the monthly send would allow group owners to include a word like "monthly" or "reminder" there, anything that lets members know that they're not being singled out (as a couple of my group members worried about) and that this is a routine, periodic send/reminder. Yet the send on join is sending something new to the member, so the words "monthly" and "reminder" don't really fit. For the time being, I've solved this by including the entire explanation in the title ("Group guidelines: sent to all new members and monthly to the group"). 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

On GMF, we've been having a discussion about the new Group Guidelines notice that was sent for the first time on 1 October. There are some tweaks that we feel would be useful and appreciated.

1. The group Subject Tag wasn't added to the subject line of the email. When sent directly to a member by a moderator, it is.
1A. One suggestion was to have the monthly go out with its Subject line (including Subject/group tag & hashtag), but when you elect to send it to one or more members, pre-fill the Subject line on that message composition with just the Subject (no group tag or hashtag)
2. The notice isn't sent to the group archives. While those online can easily click the tab on the left, having it be treated more like a regular post would bring the guidelines to the attention of those members. It should also create an entry in the activity log, which was missing.
3. A system hashtag, possibly #Guidelines, added to the Subject would be appropriate. If this hashtag were set by default to delete the thread after one month, that would prevent having multiple copies of (possibly different) guidelines in the archive.
3A. Possibly have a second hashtag that is used only when sent to those joining a group ("Send on join"), maybe #NewMember.

There was also quite a discussion of the Subject/title of the notice. Apparently some of those that received them thought they were being singled out. We've discovered that we can change this to fit our needs, so the default of 'Group Guidelines' is a good neutral starting place. Having a separate notice Subject, one under the "Send on join" checkbox and one under the "Send monthly" box would be the optimum option.

Thanks,
Duane (and others)

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 06:20 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

the only one you're really concerned with is "group",

That's the only one I've been testing anyway. And I'll check the landing page distinctions. I know that the confirmation dialogs look different. One is multi-colored and one is black and white, as I (vaguely) recall. It all seemed crazy....
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

J,

I'll have to do it all over again tonight and take better notes.

In your testing make note that the format of the link URL is different if the message came from a group whose Reply-To option is set to "group" versus "sender" or "sender and group".

But the only one you're really concerned with is "group", as that's the case where the link's URL carries an encoding of the account that footer was sent to.

Too, the content of the landing page is subtly different (and, Mark, I think needlessly different). Maybe the coding is different because of the account conflict issue, but the text and buttons probably needn't be.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 06:05 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

That's not a confirmation email

True. It was a confirmation dialog, but within the page of the wrong account. I'll have to do it all over again tonight and take better notes.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 05:48 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

I definitely need to do something about how we currently display your
logged in email address even when unsubscribing a different email
address. I need to think about how best to do that.

Yes, very unsettling that the landing page doesn't display the address being unsubscribed.

Not only that, but it suddenly switches midway through the process to the other one (the one being unsubscribed)! I thought I was imagining things or getting confused about which account I was using until I started writing down the sequence of what happened, and then reproducing it. The content Shal is suggesting would be fine, I think. Anything clear would be fine. But switching like that is definitely unsettling and weird!
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

J,

There's also a confirmation email ...

That's not a confirmation email - it doesn't ask you to confirm your desire to unsubscribe, it tells you that you _have_ been unsubscribed. Very different.

That's the kind of message I'd use as an "acknowledgement" (for an authenticated +unsubscribe command).

AND a confirmation dialog in the home page it logs you into with the
current unsubscribe link.

That landing page is a confirmation (request), and if you ok the unsubscribe you go to an acknowledgment page that has the "resume" link - mirroring the content of the email that is sent.

This part is all ok, I think. Apart from two clicks being one too many (but the emerging one-click unsubscribe protocol is probably a topic for another thread).

It actually seems like a mailto link is simpler all the way around,
in addition to being safer and just as effective.

The bug-a-boo with the mailto link is that confirmation email. If the user doesn't see it then nothing happens except frustration and complaints - and some users labeling further group messages as "spam". A bad user experience all the way around: bad for user, bad for group admins who get complaints and unsubscribe me requests, and bad for Groups.io who gets a reputation as a spammer.

At least with the link the job is done as soon as the user clicks the button on the landing page - if they never see the acknowledgment email there's no harm done (other than they miss a second opportunity to resume their membership).

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

Mark,

I definitely need to do something about how we currently display your
logged in email address even when unsubscribing a different email
address. I need to think about how best to do that.

Yes, very unsettling that the landing page doesn't display the address being unsubscribed. How about:

"Unsubscribe [email] from shalstest | main
--------------------
Are you sure you, [Display Name <email>], wish to leave shalstest | main? You will be unsubscribed from any subgroups as well.

If you would like to stay a member but limit emails, click the Special Notices Only button."

Shal


--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

J,

So the email address that clicks on the mailto link is the one who
gets unsubscribed, ...

More precisely, the email address in the From: of the message to the group's +unsubscribe address.

It would be up to the user's email interface to decide which address goes there - in a situation like Duane and mine, with multiple addresses managed through a single instance of Thunderbird. In a typical webmail setup, with only one email address ("account") in use, there's no ambiguity.

... and there would be no possibility that someone who forwards or
cc's a group message to someone else could be
erroneously/accidentally unsubscribed?

Correct.

Note though that some form of authentication is required with the +unsubscribe command. For Groups.io (and Yahoo Groups) this means that the system responds to the command by sending back a confirmation request email. The unsubscribe does not take effect until or unless it is confirmed.

That's a big downside - users often miss the confirmation email and become frustrated that the unsubscribe didn't work.

I think that downside could be mitigated, in most but not all cases, by using email authentication (such as SPF) as a "good enough" confirmation so that the system can send back an acknowledgment rather than a confirmation request.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 05:04 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

I must dense also.

Well, that proves it. I must BE dense. :)
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 04:39 pm, Duane wrote:

Maybe I'm just dense, but I rally don't see what the reason could be.

I must dense also. Plus, I keep remembering what a catastrophe using the actual current unsubscribe link is. It takes you immediately to the groups.io page of whatever the current browser is logged into, even if it's logged into a completely unrelated account. And THEN, after you click on "confirm unsubscribe," that page morphs immediately into the home page of the actual person who clicked on the link. Poof, one email address/ID appears at the right (the wrong one), and then the login switches to the email address/ID of the person who clicked on the link. You have to see it to believe it. It AUTO-LOGS you in to the second account. No password was required. How can a mailto link be any worse than that?
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 04:25 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:

In terms of removing the unsubscribe link and replacing that with a mailto, as
evidenced by the start of this thread back in June, there's definite
resistance to doing so.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I rally don't see what the reason could be. To use a mailto would require 2 clicks, one on the link and one on send. (The mailto could have the +unsubscribe address prefilled, along with the subject that includes groupname-unsubscribe or similar.) To use the site would also require at least 2 clicks, the link and verification. Is there some other reason that I'm not aware of that email wouldn't be a good choice?

Duane

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 04:25 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:

J and anyone else who sees this, if you see a replied to message, where the leave link is left intact (this is the link with xyzzy in it), please send me a pointer to it off-list. 

Mark,

I will have recreate and resend you some tonight or tomorrow, because I was using my test group and afterwards deleted most of the messages (for various reasons). If I find any undeleted ones, will send you asap.

In terms of removing the unsubscribe link and replacing that with a mailto, as evidenced by the start of this thread back in June, there's definite resistance to doing so.

I am confused. It looks like the resistance (including Shal's then) was resistance to forcing people to log in in order to unsubscribe. I don't see any reference to a mailto there. Would a mailto link instead, as originally suggested by Shal here, require people to log in? Maybe I don't really understand what a mailto link would do. 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu