Date   

moderated Re: Deletion of (last) sub group changes address of (remaining) main group #bug

Jeremy H
 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:52 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
What about the case where someone is just testing out subgroups and then decides they don't want any? How would they convert their group back to a stand-alone group? I made it revert when you delete the last subgroup, because I thought that the 'testing' scenario would be much more common than the scenario you outline.
 
It probably is; and in that ('testing') scenario it (probably) doesn't matter: but that won't stop the situation - sooner or later - of somebody deleting a final sub-group, with sufficiently well established use of a main@groupname.groups.io address, etc. and then having a problem when it stops working. History is littered with situations where the unlikely - and hence uncatered for - 'Black Swan' events actually happened.

So - at the vary least - when the last sub-group is about to be deleted, there should be a warning message about the consequences, with a 'do you really want to do this' question.

I'm not sure how much I agree with Bob's suggestion about keeping an empty sub-group to avoid the problem - apart from the wastefulness, its purpose is bound to be forgotten eventually when somebody decides to do a tidy up, and - 'bang'!

I would agree with JohnF's suggestion that main@groupname.groups.io should always work, but what about the case where someone wants the 'main' group to be called something different? or - even more confusingly - have 'main' as a genuine sub-group? (perhaps main should be a default reserved word for these cases?)

Or, alternatively (as I might have suggested before), that the main group should just be a dummy group, from which sub-groups hang, having little more than the master membership and subgroup lists, but not usable for actually messaging or such (that's done at sub-group level): what we think of as the main (or primary) group (i.e. main@...) would just be first among equals. (there's actually no need for any sub-group to actually include all the main (dummy) group members) 
(Take a look at the thcamra group (one I've encountered, without being a member of or associated to in any way) for a group organised along these lines). 

Jeremy


moderated Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

 

I can only agree to what Ellen said.

Victoria

 

Although I've nothing to add about how to do it, I want to voice that I welcome categories strongly.  They can help people find groups of interest to them, and help those groups who might have more and active members who find them. I endorse both Marv Washke's and David Dillard's comments, suggesting we can find a middle way between having not that many and clear categories and having enough. Finally I'll add, do try to make the software easy to use for everyone.

 

Ellen Moody

-------- ---


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Ellen Moody
 

Although I've nothing to add about how to do it, I want to voice that I welcome categories strongly.  They can help people find groups of interest to them, and help those groups who might have more and active members who find them. I endorse both Marv Washke's and David Dillard's comments, suggesting we can find a middle way between having not that many and clear categories and having enough. Finally I'll add, do try to make the software easy to use for everyone.

Ellen Moody

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 6:52 AM, David P. Dillard <jwne@...> wrote:


I agree with this post that 100 categories is far from overkill and it should be added to as needed.  Concepts like artificial intelligence may be needed to be added as terminology used in the world knowledge base grows and groups form around these new concepts as could also happen with self driving cars.  Multiple tags from the LC or Dewey lists could be added for groups with a very complex list topic and both lists could be employed so that unique items in each list could be used. Like books, topics covered by discussion groups on various discussion group networks are numerous and many very specific in coverage such as the lists in biomechanics or early American history and literature or the
18th century.

Keeping it simple will simply divide long heterogeneous by ten in the
case of the "Letterman Top Ten List" of the Dewey Decimal classification system. There is nothing to stop those wanting to list their groups with such a top ten list from just those categories from using one or more of these to define their group. A statement of the issues a group does
on its main page is also useful and a category of GENERAL should be
available for groups that cover all or a wide range of topics. Unfortunately there is nothing simple about subject classification
and a simplistic list will have very little value for finding discussion groups with specific topics of coverage such as diabetes or the war of 1812 as with the growth of GroupsIO there may be many medical and history groups here and these topics may have a huge body or lists under each of these categories for a potential member to wade through to find the list subject they desire.








Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University Libraries
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...




On Thu, 5 Apr 2018, Sharon Villines wrote:



On Apr 5, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Marv Waschke <marv@...> wrote:

The problem I see with Dewey or Library of Congress categories is that assigning them properly to books is usually a task for a specialist with a graduate degree in library science.

Only if you go to the more differentiated levels with thousands of distinctions.

The first level is 10 categories.

        • 000 – Computer science, information & general works
        • 100 – Philosophy and psychology
        • 200 – Religion
        • 300 – Social sciences
        • 400 – Language
        • 500 – Pure Science
        • 600 – Technology
        • 700 – Arts & recreation
        • 800 – Literature
        • 900 – History & geography

The second level is 100, which would still be simpler than Yahoo’s hierarchy.

000 Computer science, knowledge & systems
010 Bibliographies
020 Library & information sciences
030 Encyclopedias & books of facts
040 [Unassigned]
050 Magazines, journals & serials
060 Associations, organizations & museums
070 News media, journalism & publishing
080 Quotations
090 Manuscripts & rare books
100 Philosophy
110 Metaphysics
120 Epistemology
130 Parapsychology & occultism
140 Philosophical schools of thought
150 Psychology
160 Logic
170 Ethics
180 Ancient, medieval & eastern philosophy
190 Modern western philosophy
200 Religion
210 Philosophy & theory of religion
220 The Bible
230 Christianity & Christian theology
240 Christian practice & observance
250 Christian pastoral practice & religious orders
260 Christian organization, social work & worship
270 History of Christianity
280 Christian denominations
290 Other religions
300 Social sciences, sociology & anthropology
310 Statistics
320 Political science
330 Economics
340 Law
350 Public administration & military science
360 Social problems & social services
370 Education
380 Commerce, communications & transportation
390 Customs, etiquette & folklore
400 Language
410 Linguistics
420 English & Old English languages
430 German & related languages
440 French & related languages
450 Italian, Romanian & related languages
460 Spanish & Portuguese languages
470 Latin & Italic languages
480 Classical & modern Greek languages
490 Other languages     500 Science
510 Mathematics
520 Astronomy
530 Physics
540 Chemistry
550 Earth sciences & geology
560 Fossils & prehistoric life
570 Life sciences; biology
580 Plants (Botany)
590 Animals (Zoology)
600 Technology
610 Medicine & health
620 Engineering
630 Agriculture
640 Home & family management
650 Management & public relations
660 Chemical engineering
670 Manufacturing
680 Manufacture for specific uses
690 Building & construction
700 Arts
710 Landscaping & area planning
720 Architecture
730 Sculpture, ceramics & metalwork
740 Drawing & decorative arts
750 Painting
760 Graphic arts
770 Photography & computer art
780 Music
790 Sports, games & entertainment
800 Literature, rhetoric & criticism
810 American literature in English
820 English & Old English literatures
830 German & related literatures
840 French & related literatures
850 Italian, Romanian & related literatures
860 Spanish & Portuguese literatures
870 Latin & Italic literatures
880 Classical & modern Greek literatures
890 Other literatures
900 History
910 Geography & travel
920 Biography & genealogy
930 History of ancient world (to ca. 499)
940 History of Europe
950 History of Asia
960 History of Africa
970 History of North America
980 History of South America
990 History of other areas

Then you get to the thousands.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines

“There can be too much truth in any relationship.” — Violet, Dowager Countess of Grantham











moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

David P. Dillard
 

I agree with this post that 100 categories is far from overkill and it should be added to as needed. Concepts like artificial intelligence may be needed to be added as terminology used in the world knowledge base grows and groups form around these new concepts as could also happen with self driving cars. Multiple tags from the LC or Dewey lists could be added for groups with a very complex list topic and both lists could be employed so that unique items in each list could be used. Like books, topics covered by discussion groups on various discussion group networks are numerous and many very specific in coverage such as the lists in biomechanics or early American history and literature or the
18th century.

Keeping it simple will simply divide long heterogeneous by ten in the
case of the "Letterman Top Ten List" of the Dewey Decimal classification system. There is nothing to stop those wanting to list their groups with such a top ten list from just those categories from using one or more of these to define their group. A statement of the issues a group does
on its main page is also useful and a category of GENERAL should be
available for groups that cover all or a wide range of topics. Unfortunately there is nothing simple about subject classification
and a simplistic list will have very little value for finding discussion groups with specific topics of coverage such as diabetes or the war of 1812 as with the growth of GroupsIO there may be many medical and history groups here and these topics may have a huge body or lists under each of these categories for a potential member to wade through to find the list subject they desire.








Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University Libraries
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@temple.edu

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018, Sharon Villines wrote:



On Apr 5, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Marv Waschke <marv@marvinwaschke.com> wrote:

The problem I see with Dewey or Library of Congress categories is that assigning them properly to books is usually a task for a specialist with a graduate degree in library science.
Only if you go to the more differentiated levels with thousands of distinctions.

The first level is 10 categories.

• 000 – Computer science, information & general works
• 100 – Philosophy and psychology
• 200 – Religion
• 300 – Social sciences
• 400 – Language
• 500 – Pure Science
• 600 – Technology
• 700 – Arts & recreation
• 800 – Literature
• 900 – History & geography

The second level is 100, which would still be simpler than Yahoo’s hierarchy.

000 Computer science, knowledge & systems
010 Bibliographies
020 Library & information sciences
030 Encyclopedias & books of facts
040 [Unassigned]
050 Magazines, journals & serials
060 Associations, organizations & museums
070 News media, journalism & publishing
080 Quotations
090 Manuscripts & rare books
100 Philosophy
110 Metaphysics
120 Epistemology
130 Parapsychology & occultism
140 Philosophical schools of thought
150 Psychology
160 Logic
170 Ethics
180 Ancient, medieval & eastern philosophy
190 Modern western philosophy
200 Religion
210 Philosophy & theory of religion
220 The Bible
230 Christianity & Christian theology
240 Christian practice & observance
250 Christian pastoral practice & religious orders
260 Christian organization, social work & worship
270 History of Christianity
280 Christian denominations
290 Other religions
300 Social sciences, sociology & anthropology
310 Statistics
320 Political science
330 Economics
340 Law
350 Public administration & military science
360 Social problems & social services
370 Education
380 Commerce, communications & transportation
390 Customs, etiquette & folklore
400 Language
410 Linguistics
420 English & Old English languages
430 German & related languages
440 French & related languages
450 Italian, Romanian & related languages
460 Spanish & Portuguese languages
470 Latin & Italic languages
480 Classical & modern Greek languages
490 Other languages 500 Science
510 Mathematics
520 Astronomy
530 Physics
540 Chemistry
550 Earth sciences & geology
560 Fossils & prehistoric life
570 Life sciences; biology
580 Plants (Botany)
590 Animals (Zoology)
600 Technology
610 Medicine & health
620 Engineering
630 Agriculture
640 Home & family management
650 Management & public relations
660 Chemical engineering
670 Manufacturing
680 Manufacture for specific uses
690 Building & construction
700 Arts
710 Landscaping & area planning
720 Architecture
730 Sculpture, ceramics & metalwork
740 Drawing & decorative arts
750 Painting
760 Graphic arts
770 Photography & computer art
780 Music
790 Sports, games & entertainment
800 Literature, rhetoric & criticism
810 American literature in English
820 English & Old English literatures
830 German & related literatures
840 French & related literatures
850 Italian, Romanian & related literatures
860 Spanish & Portuguese literatures
870 Latin & Italic literatures
880 Classical & modern Greek literatures
890 Other literatures
900 History
910 Geography & travel
920 Biography & genealogy
930 History of ancient world (to ca. 499)
940 History of Europe
950 History of Asia
960 History of Africa
970 History of North America
980 History of South America
990 History of other areas

Then you get to the thousands.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines

“There can be too much truth in any relationship.” — Violet, Dowager Countess of Grantham





moderated Re: Deletion of (last) sub group changes address of (remaining) main group #bug

 

I think I've suggested before that main@groupname.groups.io should always work, even if the group has no subgroups. It can still send out mail as groupname@groups.io, but if someone insists on using the "main" address, the mail should still be accepted.

This suggestion depends on there not being any issues with a huge number of mostly-unused DNS addresses.

JohnF


moderated Re: Deletion of (last) sub group changes address of (remaining) main group #bug

Bob Bellizzi
 

Mark,
That makes sense to me.
I the change back to the original main address is not wanted, one could simply disable any members' use of the last sub group and/or unsubscribe them from it, leaving the inactive sub group in place.
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Sharon Villines
 

On Apr 5, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Marv Waschke <marv@marvinwaschke.com> wrote:

The problem I see with Dewey or Library of Congress categories is that assigning them properly to books is usually a task for a specialist with a graduate degree in library science.
Only if you go to the more differentiated levels with thousands of distinctions.

The first level is 10 categories.

• 000 – Computer science, information & general works
• 100 – Philosophy and psychology
• 200 – Religion
• 300 – Social sciences
• 400 – Language
• 500 – Pure Science
• 600 – Technology
• 700 – Arts & recreation
• 800 – Literature
• 900 – History & geography

The second level is 100, which would still be simpler than Yahoo’s hierarchy.

000 Computer science, knowledge & systems
010 Bibliographies
020 Library & information sciences
030 Encyclopedias & books of facts
040 [Unassigned]
050 Magazines, journals & serials
060 Associations, organizations & museums
070 News media, journalism & publishing
080 Quotations
090 Manuscripts & rare books
100 Philosophy
110 Metaphysics
120 Epistemology
130 Parapsychology & occultism
140 Philosophical schools of thought
150 Psychology
160 Logic
170 Ethics
180 Ancient, medieval & eastern philosophy
190 Modern western philosophy
200 Religion
210 Philosophy & theory of religion
220 The Bible
230 Christianity & Christian theology
240 Christian practice & observance
250 Christian pastoral practice & religious orders
260 Christian organization, social work & worship
270 History of Christianity
280 Christian denominations
290 Other religions
300 Social sciences, sociology & anthropology
310 Statistics
320 Political science
330 Economics
340 Law
350 Public administration & military science
360 Social problems & social services
370 Education
380 Commerce, communications & transportation
390 Customs, etiquette & folklore
400 Language
410 Linguistics
420 English & Old English languages
430 German & related languages
440 French & related languages
450 Italian, Romanian & related languages
460 Spanish & Portuguese languages
470 Latin & Italic languages
480 Classical & modern Greek languages
490 Other languages 500 Science
510 Mathematics
520 Astronomy
530 Physics
540 Chemistry
550 Earth sciences & geology
560 Fossils & prehistoric life
570 Life sciences; biology
580 Plants (Botany)
590 Animals (Zoology)
600 Technology
610 Medicine & health
620 Engineering
630 Agriculture
640 Home & family management
650 Management & public relations
660 Chemical engineering
670 Manufacturing
680 Manufacture for specific uses
690 Building & construction
700 Arts
710 Landscaping & area planning
720 Architecture
730 Sculpture, ceramics & metalwork
740 Drawing & decorative arts
750 Painting
760 Graphic arts
770 Photography & computer art
780 Music
790 Sports, games & entertainment
800 Literature, rhetoric & criticism
810 American literature in English
820 English & Old English literatures
830 German & related literatures
840 French & related literatures
850 Italian, Romanian & related literatures
860 Spanish & Portuguese literatures
870 Latin & Italic literatures
880 Classical & modern Greek literatures
890 Other literatures
900 History
910 Geography & travel
920 Biography & genealogy
930 History of ancient world (to ca. 499)
940 History of Europe
950 History of Asia
960 History of Africa
970 History of North America
980 History of South America
990 History of other areas

Then you get to the thousands.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines

“There can be too much truth in any relationship.” — Violet, Dowager Countess of Grantham


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Marv Waschke
 

The problem I see with Dewey or Library of Congress categories is that assigning them properly to books is usually a task for a specialist with a graduate degree in library science. Library classification systems are certainly masterpieces, but I am afraid they are overkill for groups.io. Also, I think we may be over-thinking tag spamming. I am willing to assume that spamming could happen, but if and when it does occur, it could be stopped by intervention. Add something about tag-abuse to the groups.io TOS and take care of tag-spamming when it happens. Keep it simple.
Best, Marv Waschke


moderated Re: Deletion of (last) sub group changes address of (remaining) main group #bug

 

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Jeremy Harrison via Groups.Io <jeremygharrison@...> wrote:
When a sub group is added to mygroup@groups.io, then the main group will be changed to main@mygroup.groups.io (or as chosen) with mygroup@groups.io established as an alias.

If however the sub group (or if there were several, the last) is deleted, leaving only the main group, then this process is reversed, so the main@mygroup.groups.io address is deleted.

When I found this issue, it was in a test environment, so no problem, but in the case where the sub-group, and hence the main@mygroup.groups.io address, was long established, it would cause problems. So I believe this should not happen, and the main@mygroup.groups.io address should remain - as essentially a main group without any sub-groups.


What about the case where someone is just testing out subgroups and then decides they don't want any? How would they convert their group back to a stand-alone group? I made it revert when you delete the last subgroup, because I thought that the 'testing' scenario would be much more common than the scenario you outline.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Posting as Owner / Moderator #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 09:31 am, Gerald Boutin wrote:
This idea is probably not ideal, but you might be able to "fake" this functionality using two separate email accounts.
You're right; it isn't. It seems to be a messy workaround which could be much simpler if the suggestions in my original were to be implemented.

Are you and others actually objecting to the proposal? In which case what are your grounds for that objection?

Regards,

Chris


moderated Posting as Owner / Moderator #suggestion

 

 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 09:31 am, Gerald Boutin wrote:

A judicious use of email address and display names could serve to give you two different identities.

 Gerald,

we have a special account named group-moderator that is used when general notices are sent to members.

Victoria


moderated Re: Posting as Owner / Moderator #suggestion

 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 09:31 am, Gerald Boutin wrote:
A judicious use of email address and display names could serve to give you two different identities.
We do it that way. My group has a moderator account that all the mods can use anonymously when not wanting to post under our actual names. It has come in very handy in some situations.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Posting as Owner / Moderator #suggestion

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

Chris,

This idea is probably not ideal, but you might be able to "fake" this functionality using two separate email accounts.

As a moderator, I've found it desirable to have a normal user account for checking out issues. A judicious use of email address and display names could serve to give you two different identities.
 
-- 
Gerald


On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 06:49 am, Chris Jones wrote:
The following has been the subject of some discussion on the GMF:

If an Owner or Moderator starts a "New Topic" then they can do so either as "themselves" or as the Group Owner. However, any replies they wish to make in any thread can only be done in their "personal" capacity.

1: Could things be changed to allow an Owner / Moderator to post replies (in any thread) as "Owner / Moderator".


However, when posting as an Owner / Moderator the individual's personal Display Name is shown on the website, and the email sent to members is sent as <Personal Display Name><Group Owner@...)

2: Could things be changed so that there is a separate Display Name for Owner / Moderator. Ideally this should be Owner selectable, perhaps with Owner / Moderator as a default setting, subject to the number of characters available in the Display Name field. (I don't think any limit is particularly low anyway, having looked at some of those on one Group!) The email sent to members should be <Owner><Group Owner@...) rather than the name of the individual.

Regards,

Chris


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Sharon Villines
 

On Apr 5, 2018, at 8:04 AM, toki <toki.kantoor@gmail.com> wrote:

On 04/05/2018 03:58 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

In this case the tags would be created by the group admins, so that may
mitigate the irrelevant tags somewhat. That is, the group admins have a
motive to be found under relevant tags.
My point is that there is no reason for group admins to not use
irrelevant tags for their lists. Even with a limitation of four or five
tags, tag spamming will happen.
One option would be to search only the tags that have a minimum number of uses, like tag clouds can when producing a list of tags.

Is this a question of the capabilities of the search function or the usefulness of allowing odd tags? In terms of time taken on all sides to use a conforming list, is it worth worrying about?

Even if a tag is odd, the people who are searching for such a group are probably similarly odd and will use the same tag.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines, Washington DC

"Reality is something you rise above." Liza Minnelli


moderated Posting as Owner / Moderator #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

The following has been the subject of some discussion on the GMF:

If an Owner or Moderator starts a "New Topic" then they can do so either as "themselves" or as the Group Owner. However, any replies they wish to make in any thread can only be done in their "personal" capacity.

1: Could things be changed to allow an Owner / Moderator to post replies (in any thread) as "Owner / Moderator".


However, when posting as an Owner / Moderator the individual's personal Display Name is shown on the website, and the email sent to members is sent as <Personal Display Name><Group Owner@...)

2: Could things be changed so that there is a separate Display Name for Owner / Moderator. Ideally this should be Owner selectable, perhaps with Owner / Moderator as a default setting, subject to the number of characters available in the Display Name field. (I don't think any limit is particularly low anyway, having looked at some of those on one Group!) The email sent to members should be <Owner><Group Owner@...) rather than the name of the individual.

Regards,

Chris


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

toki
 

On 04/05/2018 03:58 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

In this case the tags would be created by the group admins, so that may
mitigate the irrelevant tags somewhat. That is, the group admins have a
motive to be found under relevant tags.
My point is that there is no reason for group admins to not use
irrelevant tags for their lists. Even with a limitation of four or five
tags, tag spamming will happen.



jonathon


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

 

Susanne,

Shal, in your PTA example, how many of your tags appear as words in
the description of your group?
Hmm... Good question.

Yes: PTA, PTSA, "high school", parent, student, teacher, California, Monrovia

No: education, volunteer, "secondary school", USA,

How much more discoverability do the tags give you?
Hard to guess. It may depend quite a bit on how the tags are handled within the search facility. In a "relevance" type of search result I think it would make sense to rank tags higher than words in the Description.

Shal


moderated Re: Deletion of (last) sub group changes address of (remaining) main group #bug

 

Jeremy,

If however the sub group (or if there were several, the last) is
deleted, leaving only the main group, then this process is reversed,
so the main@mygroup.groups.io address is deleted.
Huh. I've long been under the impression that was not true. But it looks like my memory is faulty.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/10970

So I believe this should not happen, and the main@mygroup.groups.io
address should remain - as essentially a main group without any
sub-groups.
Right, that's what I thought would happen. Though now I don't see why I had that impression.

Shal


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

 

jonathon,

I remember when they were a thing, and despite limitations on either
the number of characters, or number of tags, irrelevant tagging was
the rule, not the exception.
In this case the tags would be created by the group admins, so that may mitigate the irrelevant tags somewhat. That is, the group admins have a motive to be found under relevant tags.

There would still be a potential problem with tag spamming (a group admin attaching very popular, but irrelevant, tags to their group in a bid for more membership); but that may be mitigated by limiting the number of tags a group may use. That is, if you're only allowed four or five tags, you may want to make them count.

Shal


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Duane
 

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 03:06 pm, toki wrote:
looking at the tags for books that
people upload
But here, the tags would be assigned by the group owner, not members (public).  I suspect most people could find the group they're looking for by doing a search of the directory, assuming it's listed, from within the description (as it is now).  I've done a few test searches and by simply adding a second related word have narrowed them down to just a few groups.  The tags could be used as supplementary information.  Truth be told, it doesn't look to me like there really needs to be any additional search capability.  An owner could just include some specifics in their description if there might be many groups that are related.  I realize that some people are much more organized than I am though and believe a category system of some type would work better.

Duane

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