Date   

moderated Re: AOL problem

 

Bob,

One of the biggest problems is that in many cases, the intended
recipient is not informed of the groups.io message being intercepted
and never delivered to them in any form.
I'm uncertain what scenario you are considering, but it isn't this one.

This scenario starts with messages that are delivered to the member, albeit possibly to Spam or some folder other than their Inbox.

In that case, there is no communication possible between groups.io and
the intended recipient to instruct the recipient, period, so all
schemes depending on communication are not possible.
That's generally not the behavior of major email services' spam filters. As long as the message source does not appear on a blacklist, and/or hasn't established a strongly negative reputation, the filter will tend to pick and choose messages to divert based on the message content.

In particular off-list notifications (such as the "resume" notice, or a even a member notice from the group's mods via the site) are not likely to be downrated just because group message traffic was.

So showing them how to set up any new provider account doesn't seem an
option.
Well, it certainly is an "impertinent" response, IMO.

I would only suggest it to Yahoo Mail users who might actually prefer another provider, but came over from a Yahoo Group having believed that it was necessary or better to use Yahoo Mail with that service.

Shal


moderated Re: AOL problem

 

J,

But what I'm still not understanding is how the proposed method ... is
any different or better than the current method ... IN TERMS OF the
situation repeating itself ad infinitum with the particular member.
It has been noted that the unsubscription in the current mechanism is often associated with various strong emotional responses from the member: panic, confusion, anger, a sense of betrayal. None of that is conducive to resolving a complex issue.

I posit that leaving the subscription intact will reduce the intensity of those reactions and will reduce the sense of urgency in "fixing" the problem. Both of those can go a long way to improving member comprehension and willingness to learn.

Shal


moderated Re: AOL problem

 

J,

Is the current proposition different in that their configuration would
somehow change to prevent future emails from going into spam?
I don't think there's anything that can be done at the Groups.io end to have that effect. And I don't think the "Spam Report Hold" proposal is significantly different than Unsubscribed For Spam in terms of how it affects the delivery of future emails.

Rather, I see its fundamental advantage as allowing the member continued access via web.

This aspect may have some additional benefits:

1) Activist moderators need not be in a Premium group to aide the affected members (no need for Direct Add). They could contact the member off-list and/or initiate additional "spam probes" (akin to bounce probes) to help the member resume email communication.

2) Members who prefer to access the group via the web need not be worried or panicked to straighten out the issue, they can take their time. They can be encouraged to reduce or eliminate future incidents by way of switching to Special Notices or No Email in the future.

Balanced against these potential benefits is the very real complexity cost of implementing the mechanism, both for Mark as developer and for us as mods and owners to learn and teach about it (but the latter may be no worse than what we face already with the Unsubscribe mechanism).

Shal


moderated Re: AOL problem

 

Ronaldo,

What's keeping those later messages from getting stuck in the same
spamfilter?
Nothing by mechanism.

The intent is that the service interruption will either:

1) Bring the member's attention to the issue, and encourage him/her to take whatever corrective action is necessary to keep group messages out of their Spam folder, to avoid a repeat of the inconvenience.

or

2) Stop wasting the sender's and receiver's electrons sending messages to a user who has lost interest in the group's content.

From what I've read, the email service providers by and large believe that (2) is the majority case, and that relatively few of their affected users fall into category (1). Absent clairvoyance I can't say that they're wrong -- we moderators only ever hear from users in category (1), so our perception may be biased.

Shal


moderated Digests do not automatically include the message replied to

Paul Fraser <paul1959fraser@...>
 

Hi,
I have searched this topic but have found no mention of it. If this is the not the correct place to post this feature request please tell where I should do this.

Currently, my Yahoogroups list puts outs digests that not only include the message posted but also attaches the message that is being replied to. Ours is a busy group so this is an important feature—context would quickly be lost otherwise.
Groups.io digests strip out the message that is replied to, so in our test group this led to nearly unintelligible digests. Is it possible to change groups.io digests so they mirror Yahoogroups behaviour?

PS I’ve found a way to fudge the issue (by turning on the signature block) for all users except those who reply via the web interface without quoting the message they are replying to. “Educating” our users is unlikely to produce the required result.

Regards,
--
Paul Fraser


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

Arno Martens
 

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 10:16 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:

Anyone remember this guy?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shalf/6210313586/
Also my doing. :-)

Mark
I have nothing against cats, or elephants for that matter, but I would much prefer that plumber.
When there is a problem I rather see something flippant to make me laugh than something nice.
chacun à son goût
Thanks, Mark,
Arno


moderated Re: Email daily summary

Arno Martens
 

Tom,

I m using the Plain Digest Option and find it in my Inbox every morning.

Regards.
Arno


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 07:38 pm, D R Stinson wrote:
we're seeing a number of new members who think they should have whatever they want and are quite willing to stand up and demand that they have things their way.
Agreed. There was even one comment, which I found particularly annoying, criticizing those who would "hamstring" some alleged "majority" of people wanting to get rid of the option to disable no-email, without the slightest knowledge by the poster of the years-long discussion/debate here about the option and its final resolution by Mark in favor of it. 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 07:38 pm, D R Stinson wrote:
Why are some offended by the cats but not the elephants??
Right! That's discrimination! >_<
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 

Dano,

PS - Why are some offended by the cats but not the elephants??
I think the answer there is undoubtedly "context".

The elephants are seen in the context of the normal product dress ("chrome" as it is sometimes called). So they look to be part of the site.

Whereas the maintenance page was lacking context (even so much as the product logo, apparently) so someone coming upon it cold might well worry whether they arrived at the right place.

I'm not in any rush to see the "serious-ified" maintenance page, but I will be interested to see that it provides better context.

Shal


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 

> > Can the cat pictures.
>
> That would be unacceptable! >_<
>
> --
> J

I've noticed an interesting (and somewhat frustrating) phenomenon with the large influx of new groups and people transferring over. It seems that we're seeing a number of new members who think they should have whatever they want and are quite willing to stand up and demand that they have things their way. They seldom seem to understand the history and nature of groups.io and don't appear to appreciate the time and efforts of the people who are long term members who have helped the system evolve to what it is today. Added to that, some don't seem to understand that demanding something may not be the best way to convince others of their opinion.

Groups.io is not some big internet company like Yahoo or Google, and there are a lot of relatively long-time members who have a lot of time and efforts invested in beta and groups.io. Having someone suddenly come in and boldly say "Can the cat pictures." rubs many of us the wrong way because it shows that the person commenting has no understanding or respect for the system or it's history. It also shows disrespect to the entire groups.io team.

If this were offering a service for free and someone came to me demanding such things, I would suggest politely that they take their demands and find another provider. (There are more blunt ways of saying that, but I'll leave that to the reader's imagination.) If they have transferred here from other services, I would remind them groups.io never deleted your old group, and you can always go back.

Be mindful that there are a lot of groups.io users who are quite satisfied with the system as it is. Most of them understand that things will develop and improve over time.

If you really need everything your way, perhaps you need to pay the money to become an enterprise group so you can control everything. As for myself, I have two paid groups and feel that what I pay is quite reasonable for the added storage and additional owner abilities. I accept groups.io's unique little quirks and am in no rush to see the individuality of the site be lost. I'd much rather see the development continue that was pushed aside while those people who stayed on other systems to the bitter end were rescued.

If some find this a little too blunt, I'm quite sorry. I've done my best to soften my comments so as to not offend anyone.

Dano

PS - Why are some offended by the cats but not the elephants??


moderated Re: Download Members only works on Members

 

Bob,

It appears that no matter which group of members you are "in" Pending,
Members, Moderated, etc you can only download Members
That's because Download (and Bulk Remove) is its own tab, not controlled by the selection on the first tab.

I wanted to compile some figures on unsubscribes (Left vs Spam Left)
and then compare to resubscribes and a couple of other things that I
track in a database.
For that wouldn't you need an export of the Activity log instead? Or in a Premium group does the "Past" list make that distinction (Left vs. Spam Left)? - I don't have any examples of Spam Left in my one Premium group.

And if so, perhaps the better solution would be to make that information additional enumerations of the "Status" and/or "User Status" fields of the export.

Hmm, speaking of which, I wonder what the User Status "2=Inactive" means. Again no examples in my Premium group.

Shal


moderated Re: Site updates #changelog

Duane
 

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 06:12 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:


NEW: You can now export all parts of your group
Except for the activity log(s)...

Duane


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 

Duane,

If this notification is used, I'd like to have an option to turn it
off.
If this becomes "something more self-hosted" as Mark suggested then it seems reasonable to add this to the list of "Email when" Notifications in a mod/owner's Subscription page.

Shal


moderated Re: Export group

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

Tres cool. I just did a small export and it only took a few seconds.

I note that this export doesn't generate an Activity event. In consideration of all of the privacy concerns, I think it would be useful to have an audit trail of data being exported. 

--
Gerald


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 04:06 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
Absolutely agree! The cats are one of the best features! :-)
Someone with the J-Catlady handle would say that...   :-)

When I first started with GIO, not that long ago, I was confronted with the cats during a downtime. It did not strike me as whimsy. I thought the site had been hacked.

Not that much later, the site was blacklisted by Norton and AVG. Norton didn't release the blacklist for nearly a week. Panic again.

"Time to grow up" strikes me as harsh...but with 2.2 million members -- each reaching their own conclusions -- it's probably time to get down to business and treat this like a business. I could elaborate on the consequences of doing otherwise, but I don't think I really need to.

My $0.02,
Bruce


moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site this week:

  • CHANGE: Increased the seriousness of the maintenance page.
  • NEW: You can now export all parts of your group, including chats, files, photos, wikis and calendar events.
  • CHANGE: Tweaked the delete group page to make it more explicit which group you're about to delete.
  • INTERNAL: Made yahoo group crawler more resilient to Yahoo errors.
  • CHANGE: The member not confirmed 'NC' badge is now orchid color instead of light blue.
  • BUGFIX: Keep formatting for github commit messages.
  • INTERNAL: Optimizations for group transfers.
  • BUGFIX: Viewing video attachments didn't work.
  • BUGFIX: Fix updating the time for repeating events.
  • CHANGE: Fix for change in Yahoo's login process.

Have a good weekend everybody.

Mark


moderated Re: "Down for maintenance" -- time to grow up...

 



On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:28 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
...
Anyone remember this guy?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shalf/6210313586/

Also my doing. :-)

Astounding. I thought he was new in 2011, long after your time...?
 

When we moved all the eGroups lists onto the ONElist platform back in January 2000, there were going to be a couple of fairly lengthy downtimes. I figured something funny would help with the inconvenience. So I worked with one of our graphics guys to select that stock photo of a plumber. I subsequently used the same photo for the Bloglines maintenance page, and I think some ex-eGroups engineers used it for their startups as well. Every once in awhile I'll see that photo pop up; I saw him on a billboard in Croatia once. </old man telling stories>


Mark


moderated Re: Fixed Width Formatting

Alexis
 

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Ferpectly....... :) :) :)


moderated Re: Fixed Width Formatting

 

Bruce,

It's not just the width of the characters. By default, browsers collapse multiple spaces into a single space unless you use the HTML nbsp character.

Oops. I forgot that. So yes, something more than just a monospaced font selection is required.

My real objection to <pre> is the boxed style it has here. But maybe a simpler style could be used in the particular case of displaying a text/plain message monospaced.

The question of word-wrap could be left to the sender, as Alexis suggests.

Shal

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