Date   

moderated With regard to Groups.io being blacklisted

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

This message is mostly aimed at Mark.   A user on one of the blind technology groups I moderate made the following two posts, and given what I know about e-mail under the hood I suspect they may have merit.   If they don't, that's fine, but it's always worth passing along something that may be able to help resolve this recurring issue.  There is a lot of overlap between the two messages, but I'm still including both below.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It may be possible that groups.io isn't being blacklisted
per say, but it's just not clearing the security filters of earthlinks
mail servers. I'm not a member of a google group or a yahoo group, so
I couldn't test their mail servers. I did however, find the groups.io
mail servers don't pass DMARC security protocols. The SPF record and
DKIM records did pass, however,
many sysadmins are using DMARC as the new gold standard for mail
security. If someone could check the headers of a google or yahoo
group email and check to see if they pass the DMARC test, it would let
us know if this is fixable, or would your idea of having earthlink
white list all of groups.io be a better approach to solving this
issue. If someone at groups.io looks at the following, it may shed
some light on the problem at hand.

for a DKIM alignment to pass, the "From" domain must match the "d="
domain of the DKIM signature.
The "d=" domain is: groups.io
The "From" domain is: gmail.com

For the SPF alignment to pass the "Return-path" domain must match the
"From" domain.
The "Return-Path" domain is: groups.io
The "From" domain is: google.com

One or both of those need to match in order for DMARC to pass. Now, we
are talking about a listserv, so I'm not exactly sure on how to go
about correcting this problem, or if it can be fixed at all, but I
wanted to throw it out there for you to investigate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't mean to disagree with you and Joseph or for that
matter, defend the actions of these large companies and their
practices. I only ment to point out this may be fixable from the
groups.io side of the fence. DMARC standards have been adopted because
of their ability to eliminate "spoofing' and other fraud perpetrated
by spammers to send, what looks like legitimate email, but in
actuality is just some type of scam or spam. Groups.io has accurately
posted the SPF record and DKIM key pairs, but there's no DMARC record
on file. Without a DMARC record explaining their mailing systems
explicitly, they are considered out of alignment. The groups.io
webmasters could create this .txt record and apply it to the DNS
record to show these hyper-active spam filters that all groups.io mail
is legitimate and should be passed through. Creating a DMARC record is
not too difficult, especially since a blind guy on a tech list has
done it dozens of times, lol. Anyway, without knowing the details of
how their servers are set up I can only speculate as to the reasons
why they don't give this a try. It I know some folks on the list have
had success twisting arms and getting some companies to do the right
thing, but I've never had any myself, so I thought I'd throw in an
alternate suggestion on how to stop this from happening. Hope this
message doesn't sound like I'm trying to undermine your efforts, that
isn't my intention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:55 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
a way to distinguish between the groups that require a response to a pending notice and those that don't.
In fact there's not even any terminology yet to refer to those two categories. Maybe (at some point, as part of an overall re-design) there could be a new setting to indicate that the group requires a response to a pending notification (possibly better-termed a "questionnaire" or whatever). For those groups, the questionnaire would be sent out immediately and the confirmation email could be dispensed with.  You'd have to come up with a name for the setting. ETc.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:52 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
The incorrect assumption here is that the Pending Subscription notice consists of some kind of questionnaire. 
Hey Bruce, I'm not assuming that at all. I was distinguishing "pending response required" groups from "non pending-response-required" groups. And that's precisely the issue I mentioned: there's currently no way set up to distinguish between those. There's a way to see which groups have an active pending notice and which ones don't, but as you point out, that's not the issue.

So what I was suggesting (as only part of cleaning up the current mess) is the possibility of a way to distinguish between the groups that require a response to a pending notice and those that don't.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 12:09 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.
The incorrect assumption here is that the Pending Subscription notice consists of some kind of questionnaire. In the case of my primary group, this notice is nothing more than a notification that we are reviewing their application. A response is neither necessary nor desirable.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

LOL 😊


On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 9:35 AM Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:
Don't feel bad about being dated.  Earthink was my 4th.  Mindspring was my 3rd hosting service after the 2nd one quit to go into another business.  Before that there was a strange outfit at the top of the Knight-Ridder bldg in San Jose called something like Internet Condos or kinda like that in 19 and 96. <lol>
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:34 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
if they don't also return the confirmation email they don't even show up in the pending list! (Still scratching my head around that one and will try to run a test today
Or, more hopefully, the pending notice isn't sent until after they confirm. So scratch that.
In fact i will try to write up some documentation for the current state of this whole thing, without judgment - just the facts as we know them. I'll run it by a few key people including Mark.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Bob Bellizzi
 

Don't feel bad about being dated.  Earthink was my 4th.  Mindspring was my 3rd hosting service after the 2nd one quit to go into another business.  Before that there was a strange outfit at the top of the Knight-Ridder bldg in San Jose called something like Internet Condos or kinda like that in 19 and 96. <lol>
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:24 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
everyone, whether groups.io virgins or not, who requests membership in such groups is required to return not only the pending questionnaire but ALSO the confirmation email.
And in the case where the person applies via the web and is a non-groups.io virgin, I think you could get the even weirder case where they could return the pending questionnaire, but if they don't also return the confirmation email they don't even show up in the pending list! (Still scratching my head around that one and will try to run a test today)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Bob Bellizzi
 

Earthink is definitely blacklisting all of groups.io.  
I have about 15 earthink.net members.  The latest soft bounce was 12/16/2018 
The last hard bounce was 12/15/2016
Our message board is fairly active with at least a couple of digests per day.
Something else is causing it the issue to be specific to some groups?
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:11 AM, Duane wrote:
they merged in early 2000
Thanks. (Damn, that dates me! :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:09 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.
Yes, exactly. But the problem (I'm guessing) is that there's no realistic way, at least currently, for groups.io to know which groups require a response to the pending notice. It is conceivable that you could come up with a method for distinguishing such groups from the "non pending-response required" groups somehow, by having a separate category, and doing away with the confirmation email for those groups.

BTW, it's not only that the NC status remains in such groups for members who are groups.io "virgins" (my own term for not being in any other groups yet). It's that everyone, whether groups.io virgins or not, who requests membership in such groups is required to return not only the pending questionnaire but ALSO the confirmation email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Duane
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
are EarthLink and mindspring somehow the same?
The information I found says they merged in early 2000, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EarthLink

Duane


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 02:11 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think the bottom line is that this is all very messy, one way or the other.
Having done a bit more "research" I have to agree. IIRC Mark's last "definitive description" of the sequence was in message 16380 of 19th March 2018, but no matter how many times I read it I finish up scratchng my head if only because from the perspective of a moderator's web UI (on a restricted group) web and email applications are treated differently in terms of when they make their first appearance. We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.

Having said that my support for  NC status being a standard filter on members remains.

Chris


moderated Re: Bounce History

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Well, as a general statement no e-mail service providers should be blacklisting groups.io for spam.   Since you can't get a groups.io message without having gone through the subscription process they are, by definition, not spam.

It appears that no matter how often Groups.io's ownership points this out, they keep the mechanisms in place that, when brainless users intentionally mark as spam or when it happens accidentally enough times they blacklist Groups.io again.

Unless customers start screaming at their e-mail service providers about this each and every time it happens for a sufficient number of times it will keep happening.  It appears that presenting the facts to them from the e-mail list service owner, that they can check out with ease, simply is not enough.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

Posts crossed, just saw Brian’s. Brian, are EarthLink and mindspring somehow the same? I did have one bouncing mindspring member unbounce after I sent a bounce probe.

On Mar 3, 2019, at 8:38 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Glad you mentioned the EarthLink bouncing. I’ve recently had a flurry of mindspring members bouncing. (Weren’t those the same, or one became the other?)
On Mar 3, 2019, at 8:20 AM, Sharon Villines via Groups.Io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:

It would be useful to be able to see a member’s bounce history — or if there is one, I can’t find it.

I’m having a problem with Earthlink addresses bouncing. Would like to see when they started — all on one date or what.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
http://www.takomavillage.org







--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

Glad you mentioned the EarthLink bouncing. I’ve recently had a flurry of mindspring members bouncing. (Weren’t those the same, or one became the other?)

On Mar 3, 2019, at 8:20 AM, Sharon Villines via Groups.Io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:

It would be useful to be able to see a member’s bounce history — or if there is one, I can’t find it.

I’m having a problem with Earthlink addresses bouncing. Would like to see when they started — all on one date or what.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
http://www.takomavillage.org






--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Sharon,

            This is an Earthlink issue.  They're "blacklisting" groups.io, again.

            See this topic on the Group Managers Forum:  Help: Earthlink now bouncing emails sent to *me* from Groups.io groups I own

            Earthlink users really need to start complaining directly to Earthlink support if there is any hope of this ever being fixed permanently.

 

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Bounce History

Sharon Villines
 

It would be useful to be able to see a member’s bounce history — or if there is one, I can’t find it.

I’m having a problem with Earthlink addresses bouncing. Would like to see when they started — all on one date or what.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
http://www.takomavillage.org


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

I think the bottom line is that this is all very messy, one way or the other. And people are confused by it on an ongoing basis. And when you throw premium groups and restricted groups into the mix, where the former can confirm members on their own and the latter often receive responses to pending notices (making NC completely unnecessary anyway), things get even more messy. I think cleaning this area up should at least be put on the Todo list.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 05:42 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
I believe the sequence that leads to them showing as NC in a group's Pending Members list is when they are entirely new to Groups.io and Request membership via the web. They will go through the sign-up process, which will send them a confirmation email (or they may choose to request a login link), but a group moderator might see them in the group's Pending list before they respond to the confirmation request email.
Yes, I've just (re-)confirmed all of that. What still bothers me about this is that mods sometimes see NC members in the pending list, and other times, just because the person applied via email rather than web, don't even know that there's a membership request at all. The inconsistency bothers me, not just because of the inconsistency per se, but because I think it's misleading to mods. If it's not possible (or is undesirable) to put a web-requesting virgin member into the pending list before they confirm, then I think it might even be preferable to also leave email-requesting virgin members out of the pending list as well until they confirm. You've already tried to answer this below ("there is benefit to listing them so that the group mods can help them resolve their NC status") but that same benefit seems to apply in the other scenario, so why let mods see one kind of request and not the other, just based on the method the person used to request membership? 

Maybe I just need more caffeine again. ;)

Hatch open, ISS astronauts have visited inside the Crew Dragon (yay!), and they've retrieved some of the cargo it brought up for them. I wonder if it has "new car smell"?

I should have watched it instead of trying to go back to sleep. Instead I kept jumping up and making notes like "check the activity log and match against the date of the confirmation email" lol.

Even if it has a new car smell, I bet they couldn't smell it through their helmets or whatever. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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