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locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Dave Sergeant
 

Obviously some very different views on this issue.

Of the three groups I am owner of:

A national amateur radio group (with plenty of international members)
which has annual subs. 900 members of which around 600 subscribe to
gio. Clearly possible if necessary for the committee to pay an annual
charge to gio. They also use Wild Apricot for their membership
database, website and other things, costs a lot more than premium...
That also has a forum but we use gio because it is far better.

A group of TV engineers based in the UK, around 300 members. This is a
totally informal group and although many are employed in the trade they
operate individually and most would resent having to pay.

My local amateur radio club with 65 on gio (although the club
membership and annual subs is only 30 or so). Yes, could pay if need
be, but a year premium would be a significant part of our annual
turnover. No need for any of the premium bits.

Three groups, all very different, and all really hobbyists rather than
commercial organisations.

Dave

http://davesergeant.com


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 05:27 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I wouldn't want anything coming in to our members direct from Groups.io asking for subscriptions to be confirmed.
Of course not. I would want it for my cats group but not my neighborhood block group, for example. This suggestion, at least the initial one I made, for this feature is that it would be optional, both on whether or not it's done at all and the timing of it. Mods could send the confirmation request at any point in time, or never. They would just click on a button.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Jeremy H
 

The problem that Mark has, and is endeavouring to solve, is one that is - essentially - common to all (or at least most) internet based operations: how do you charge for - monetise if you will - a service whose unit of supply (for Groups.io that is principally membership or post) costs very little individually (cents or fractions thereof), but in the bulk provided, a lot (kilo or megabucks): and is only practicable or valuable because it is in bulk. And which, often and traditionally, are free.

Groups,io service is primarily about members and posts - they are what I have set up groups for. Everything else (however worthwhile) is an extra (which isn't to say they're not valuable).

And, as a group owner (and I would think this the case for most), they (the number of them) are not really under my control - I can hope for many (in most cases - and this what has been encouraged) or few (occaisionally), but how many is actually down to people deciding to join, or post.

And so - because I would hope (or want to cater for) for 'many' (> 100) members - even if this is unlikely (but I don't want to be saying 'no' to applicants) - a free group is not something I am going to want in future. Ok, maybe excptionally, but not normally, for the long term. And as I am not geared up (or willing to become so) to collect (and account) for large numbers of small payments (even if I thought my (prospective) members would pay them) then possible future change to a 'premium' group is not an option.

A Premium group, for an organisation which already charges (or otherwise has funds), and could budget for the cost (including any increase through growth), certainly possible (but without a sensible free goups option, maybe off the radar), but not otherwise, (and similarly for an Enterprise group, if I'm ever in that league).

Thinking more positively - as to how to solve Mark's problem - possibly some sort of 'Donation' feature could be set up, for members of free groups to donate (direct to groups.io) - preferably not tied to any particular group. With a message every so often, saying something like 'You are a member of so many groups, have made so many posts, and have receieved so many messages since ... which we trust you found useful - while free, and ad-free, and continuing to be so, there is a cost to providing the service, so please make a donation...'  . Perhaps frequency dependent on donations. And donation buttons liberally, on group pages, message footers, etc.

Jeremy
     


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 10:09 PM, Samuel Murrayy wrote:
A LISTSERV list that I'm a member of tells me once a year to confirm my subscription by replying to the mail.  If I don't confirm, I get unsubscribed.  This may be an idea for a Groups.io feature to help trim lists of unnecessary members.

Samuel
I co-own a group for a motorbike club. I Direct Add new members when they join and have paid their membership fee, and remove them when they leave or don't pay their membership fee. I wouldn't want anything coming in to our members direct from Groups.io asking for subscriptions to be confirmed.  Therein lies confusion for members who have paid their fees and wondering what on earth is going on.

Andy


moderated #bug #bug

ian.callahan@...
 

The return to top button blocks December message history links. This is on an iPhone SE 2020.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

JeffH
 

Hello,

Apologies as I haven’t read through the entire thread. 

I manage a group that I migrated from Yahoo Groups last year. We upgraded to a Premium subscription for 12 months to ensure we were able to take advantage of the migration tools. 

The group currently has around 150 members and we don’t expect much growth. We are consuming about 130M of storage and also don’t expect much growth. The group is ultra-low volume. We only have an event once a year so there’s a flurry of messages around the summer and that’s it  

Based on what I’ve read, it looks like it would be safe for us to cancel our Premium plan and revert back to the free plan despite our having over 100 members:


  • The 100 member limit for free groups only applies to groups that are created after January 18th, 2021 at 9am Pacific Time. Existing free groups will be unchanged.

I just want to confirm this before making any changes. We fully appreciate everything that Groups.io has done in support of everything that our group needs.

Thank you very much!

-JeffH

 


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Herb Gellis
 

Sorry about the extra messages... but for extra clarity, there are also lots of existing Forums, which are basically bulletin-boards, people log in and post and read the topics all online, no email. So, even though BBs are an old idea, they still live on all over the net, and many people find it perfectly normal. I actually prefer to be a member of some of these rather than having them send email in and out. List-serves and BBs are both valid ways for groups to communicate.

So it comes down to what does it cost to run something like this, would Mark be happy to include this type of plan, would there be enough groups interested to justify it. And even in this realm there are free Forums.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Herb Gellis
 

Ok, I'm going to answer my question because I thought of something, though my particular GIO group would absolutely not go for it any way whatsoever ;-)

If the email archives themselves can be handled without worrying about major costs (again, in a large group, usually few people are the posters), then the issue becomes the email itself. If one created a plan level which I will call Bulletin-Board, that had no email, but required all members to log-in to post and read same, that would solve the email issues. All posts would stay local to the GIO system in its archives, nothing sent in or out, all activity would require logins. If a lot of members logged in at a single time that would require server horsepower, but this seems perhaps not a real-life worry (?)

Yes, Bulletin-Boards are an old idea, and I suspect for many (including my group) they wouldn't want to go that way. But if it is palatable to both Mark and a number of groups, it would perhaps solve the cost of scaling up to large memberships. Not for everybody.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Herb Gellis
 

I first want to agree that Mark must be able to run GIO effectively and with appropriate funding, it's his baby to orient as he wishes. The crux of the new funding proposal has to do with number of members, which is not unlike other list-serve plans.

I think the fear and push-back is coming about due to conditions like groups that have migrated away from the (totally free) YahooGroups, now defunct, but were populated by an awful lot of unofficial groups (not businesses or monetized clubs) that just wanted the members to communicate with each other. I actually do such a one on GIO, currently over 1000 members, on Premium. Many groups just want to talk, don't need fancy other features.

So, I wonder what specifically are the relative costs associated with some of the classes of features to see if were possible to have perhaps two kinds of Premium groups (or give them different names), one that has all the bells and whistles but more limited free membership (then pay for extras), basically the proposed new Premium group structure, and secondly the other one which would have unlimited membership with email/archives but no bells and whistles (though polls would be a natural fit here).

I'm guessing (unfortunately) that email throughput and server-power to handle that, bounces, and all related, is a major cost (if not the major cost). The actual definition of each member has to be trivial. Email archives are important, though as many mention/wonder if older archives need be maintained. I think it would be difficult to characterize this well and groups would probably rather keep old stuff than try and have a cut-off date. So, if the costs directly scale up with membership no matter what I don't see a way to solve the problem for large groups:

Basically I'm trying to find a Mark-palatable alternative for larger groups that aren't official anything, just groups of folks who now have a mechanism to discuss and share information, but nothing official, no organization, no monetization exists. Is it possible to continue to support such groups, new ones in particular, by a plan with a different feature set - mostly email oriented, not file storage and other things.

I will mention that my GIO group, like many, has a much smaller vocal set of posters than the full membership, and posts could easily average less than 10 a day. Since I wanted to keep us on the Premium level, yes to help pay for GIO, I put out a voluntary ask for small donations. I received enough this way from a sufficient small group (two-hands-full?) to pay for a year, and a bit more for next year. I can't possibly imagine any way to ask everyone to put in 55 cents per year, if we ever got un-grandfathered.

Of things mentioned in these posts, it seems reasonable to ask the entire membership once per year if they are still interested in being a member and if no response is received (after at least one more try), then delete them, to help trim membership and keep email handling down for the GIO system.

The whole issue of 501(c)(3) brings up entirely different stuff, and is not as simple as some posters may think (and then there is that question about non-US groups). I suspect that most groups are logically "non-profit" as they are just folks communicating with each other, no goods or services are sold. For companies that want to use GIO it's of course a different story, but then again they are monetized, "non-profit" or not.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

txercoupemuseum.org
 

There’s a very effective (if morally bankrupt) negotiating tactic that completely excludes any traditional presumption of “good faith.  One simply puts “on the table" an obviously unacceptable figure with the expectation that almost anything less will appear to be a “reasonable compromise”.  

I deem this  the moral equivalent of “bait and switch” business practices, illegal in most states.  Such negotiation is not yet illegal, although it most certainly should be.

I’m quite confident Mark won't kill the “goose that lays the golden egg”, but he must determine in some manner  consistent with his personal values “what the market will bear” in advance of final action.

Best,  

WRB

— 

On Dec 18, 2020, at 4:44 PM, Larry Finch <Finches@...> wrote:

<snip>

So I'm a little concerned that groups.io may be pricing themselves out of the market.

Larry

 
--
Larry Finch

N 40° 53' 50"
W 74° 02' 55"


moderated Re: Allow members to mute other members #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 12/18/2020 15:47, Patrick Dell'Era wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 08:02 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Couldn't they just use whatever MUA they are using to filter out mail from the other person?
Of course that technique fails for members using digest subscriptions.

That's a fair point. I hate digests personally, but I recognize that others find value in them.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Allow members to mute other members #suggestion

Patrick Dell'Era
 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 08:02 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Couldn't they just use whatever MUA they are using to filter out mail from the other person?
Of course that technique fails for members using digest subscriptions.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Larry Finch
 



On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:40 AM Mark Irving <m-pfaff@...> wrote:

For me it's a contribution to a low-budget hobby; when looking for a group host site as we moved off Yahoo! Groups two or three years ago, a $3000/year cost for a Premium plan would have ruled out Groups.io completely.

Now we're into competitive territory. A listserv license from L-Soft is about that: $3,000 a year. But that's for up to 20 lists, each of unlimited size. I'm site manager for a co-op server that hosts 15 non-profit listserv lists. Of course, you need an actual server to run it on, and techies who know how to manage a server. We pay about $300 a year for a virtual server on Linode, although AWS is pretty competitive also now. We're thinking of switching to mailman from listserv, which is free and open source. And we think we've found a hosting company that will do the heavy lifting on the server management end for about $500/year. In addition, our server hosts the websites for the groups we host. 

So I'm a little concerned that groups.io may be pricing themselves out of the market.

Larry

 
--
Larry Finch

N 40° 53' 50"
W 74° 02' 55"


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Larry Finch
 



On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 5:09 PM Samuel Murrayy <samuelmurray@...> wrote:
A LISTSERV list that I'm a member of tells me once a year to confirm my subscription by replying to the mail.  If I don't confirm, I get unsubscribed.  This may be an idea for a Groups.io feature to help trim lists of unnecessary members.

Samuel

That sounds like the listserv Probe function. 

Larry

--
Larry Finch

N 40° 53' 50"
W 74° 02' 55"


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Samuel Murrayy
 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 08:05 PM, toki wrote:
Based on that advice, some list-owners sent a notice to the list every 6
to 9 months, announcing that everybody would be removed from the list,
and would have to resubscribe, if they wished to continue receiving
messages.
A LISTSERV list that I'm a member of tells me once a year to confirm my subscription by replying to the mail.  If I don't confirm, I get unsubscribed.  This may be an idea for a Groups.io feature to help trim lists of unnecessary members.

Samuel





More than once I subscribed to such a list, only to removed
the following week, and having to resubscribe to it. Typically, such
purges resulted in a loss of between 20% and 50% of the subscriber base.

In the early noughts, more than one book on mailing list management
suggested a rule of unsubscribing an individual, if they had not made a
post within the last 91 days. List-owners that implemented that rule
discovered subscriber numbers took a nosedive, and stayed down.

List-owners for free groups may have to resort to tactics similar to
those described, to stay under the maximum member mark.

On the upside, Mark did give a month's notice, for list-owners to skate
in under a grandfather clause.

jonathon


moderated Box.net URL gets UTF-8 BOM added to the link #bug

Samuel Murrayy
 

Hello everyone

I just created a link to a Box.net folder in our Files section, but the link doesn't work, because a UTF-8 BOM is added to the end of the URL.  This was not visible when I pasted the link.  The link is the correct link, but with %EF%BB%BF added to the end of it.  I could not fix this, so in the end I removed the Box.net link and just uploaded a TXT file telling users what the correct link is.

Samuel


moderated Re: Infinite scroll in display preferences not working as expected in photo albums #bug

Chris Jordan
 

Looks ok, thanks


moderated Re: Automatically mark "idle" members in Admin Members list #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 08:13 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
The only practical definition of "inactive" that I can think of for members in an announcement-only group is (a) they're email-only and (b) their delivery is set to "no email." 
Not on its own. On all except one of the groups I inhabit I have "Special" set; effectively "no mail". However, I look at the them all from time to time during the day so any No Email setting would have to be combined with log -- in information to get a true picture of my participation. Furthermore some groups are fairly inactive so unless I can see that there has been a change (as evidenced by the Latest Message column on the web interface) I may not visit one or two specific groups at all. Doesn't mean I have lost interest though.

Chris


moderated Re: Automatically mark "idle" members in Admin Members list #suggestion

Peter Cook
 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 03:05 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
the OP suggestion(s) wouldn't really work for Announcement groups
The only practical definition of "inactive" that I can think of for members in an announcement-only group is (a) they're email-only and (b) their delivery is set to "no email." 

Pete


moderated Re: Automatically mark "idle" members in Admin Members list #suggestion

Christos G. Psarras
 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 11:24 AM, Peter Cook wrote:
I would also find it useful to know who is active and who isn't. Another way to go about it would be to have a sortable "Last Post Date" column in the member list. Then the owner could decide what threshold to use.

I'm also in agreement that some kind of process/capability/metric can help in identifying member active status and help keep group membership trim and fit.  But because different groups operate in different ways, the OP suggestion(s) wouldn't really work for Announcement groups for example as everyone but the mods (who post) would be flagged as "inactive", or for groups which have set the ReplyTo going to the poster only, etc, etc.  Rules depending on email delivery settings only for something like this wouldn't work that well because of folks who read online only, plus many groups do not allow "No Email".  And things could (would) get more complicated work-wise if a dashboard/setting is created to allow for setting/tweaking the "threshold" values and the like in order for the auto marking to work and be meaningful/useful to the particular group, so that means multiple system areas would get touched (group settings, member display, and any underlying supporting/provider areas), which means some work would be involved.

In contrast, Peter's idea of adding a sortable "Last Post Date" column on the member display would (most likely) be the easiest and quickest thing to implement as it would affect only one area, and it would give full flexibility to the group admin to do what they want with that displayed info (and members).  And because it is an "ongoing" value, it would prevent the possibility of a member getting accidentally removed by a mod if when the mods looks, a member who otherwise was posting in the earlier months, for the last 2 months (for example) hasn't posted anything so there would be a "inactive" label next to them, and if there was an impetus to trim the membership they may get thrown out with the bathwater.

Cheers,
Christos

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