Date   

moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

Frances
 

On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 09:11 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It would be convenient for members subscribed via "following only" to be able to click on a topic in the topics list and follow or unfollow it from there, rather than via email <snip>
This first post in the thread is what I would like. 

Sometimes i read a first message and I don’t choose to follow the topic. Later I visit the website. The thrad looks more interesting. I would like to follow from the website where I now am. I believe that the way it is now I have to go to my email and find the post. Then follow from there. 

I like to get emails to alert me to new content. 

J says that I can do it from the website bit I don’t see how. Not on my iPhone, which is a using right now. (I will test my MacBook when I get home.)

Frances


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Let’s not side-tracked lol. 


On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 04:49 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Funny, every time I’ve proposed keeping track of read vs unread messages, someone splains to md that that has to be done by my browser ;p
It doesn't have to be, and in fact the browser only contains minimal tracking functionality.

Of course, your browser only works for the web interface. On the other hand, email clients can already do a much better job at keeping track of emails (posts) read so the email viewer pretty much already has this functionality down pat.

The browser experience falls down in several ways.
1. Doesn't handle multiple devices. A post read on one device doesn't show up as read on other devices.
2. Status is not persistent. All gone any time the browser cache is flushed.
3. No reasonable way to mark a post as unread. If I just glance at a post and get interrupted before finishing "reading' it, I now have to remember that I may need to go back to it.
4. Cannot synchronize read status for posts and topics. I can read all messages in Topic view, but when I go back to messages view, the browser does not show that I've read the posts.

--
Gerald

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 04:49 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Funny, every time I’ve proposed keeping track of read vs unread messages, someone splains to md that that has to be done by my browser ;p
It doesn't have to be, and in fact the browser only contains minimal tracking functionality.

Of course, your browser only works for the web interface. On the other hand, email clients can already do a much better job at keeping track of emails (posts) read so the email viewer pretty much already has this functionality down pat.

The browser experience falls down in several ways.
1. Doesn't handle multiple devices. A post read on one device doesn't show up as read on other devices.
2. Status is not persistent. All gone any time the browser cache is flushed.
3. No reasonable way to mark a post as unread. If I just glance at a post and get interrupted before finishing "reading' it, I now have to remember that I may need to go back to it.
4. Cannot synchronize read status for posts and topics. I can read all messages in Topic view, but when I go back to messages view, the browser does not show that I've read the posts.

--
Gerald


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

iPhone typos: ‘would be done automatically’ (not ‘fine automatically’) and ‘the whole list’ (not ‘ehikd list’)

On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:58 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Another importance difference in the current vs the proposed ways of filtering is that filtering by mute or follow sounds like it would be fine automatically and by default whenever the user looks at the messsge list, leading to my feeling that it would hide messages from the user until they actively asked to see all messages (turn off the filter). I instinctively dislike that. With the current filtering methods, users have to actively request the filter each time (e.g.., do the search), and their subsequent view of messages is thd ehikd list. Not the ‘filtered’ list again.

This is the most bothersome aspect to me of filtering on mute or follow. Implementation doesn’t matter (as long as it doesn’t cause a big slowdown, which I also worry about, but perhaps needlessly). It’s the ‘opt out’ vs ‘opt in’ aspect that feels problematic to me.
On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:47 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Shal, I know what ‘filter’ means lol. My point is that these kinds of ‘filtering’ have more differences than similarities, especially (possibly) when it comes to implementation, so trying to imply these new (not yet implemented) ways of filtering are really nothing new because there’s already ‘filtering’ feels like a stretch.
On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

That's sort of semantics. Or implementation ...
Semantically, "filter" implies getting the "good" stuff by excluding what isn't wanted (coffee filter, water filter, air filter) where "search" implies seeking out what is wanted amid the unwanted (needle in a haystack). But really, and in a database application especially, they are two sides of the same coin.

I'm in favor of using disparate UI elements where that makes sense for what's being found (or excluded). Like having "All messages by this user" available in menus associated with messages and in the member Directory. But note that those controls open Groups.io's standard search results interface.

I propose the same thing with the filters. One triggers the display of selected messages via the "filter" funnel icon, but it really is a UI for doing a search operation based on date, or followed / not muted, or other criteria. The search button is no different, except it starts with a dialog box to enter the target word(s) or phrase.

which relates to my concern expressed previously in this thread that
showing follow/mutes a priori, for all topics in the group message
list, might really slow things down;
That could be an issue for the presentation of my proposed "Followed" and "not Muted" badges in the default topic list, I don't know. It would be a per-user variation in the generated display, but then so many things at Groups.io are.

these implementation issues are for Mark to determine, ...
Exactly.

Shal



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Another importance difference in the current vs the proposed ways of filtering is that filtering by mute or follow sounds like it would be fine automatically and by default whenever the user looks at the messsge list, leading to my feeling that it would hide messages from the user until they actively asked to see all messages (turn off the filter). I instinctively dislike that. With the current filtering methods, users have to actively request the filter each time (e.g.., do the search), and their subsequent view of messages is thd ehikd list. Not the ‘filtered’ list again.

This is the most bothersome aspect to me of filtering on mute or follow. Implementation doesn’t matter (as long as it doesn’t cause a big slowdown, which I also worry about, but perhaps needlessly). It’s the ‘opt out’ vs ‘opt in’ aspect that feels problematic to me.

On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:47 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Shal, I know what ‘filter’ means lol. My point is that these kinds of ‘filtering’ have more differences than similarities, especially (possibly) when it comes to implementation, so trying to imply these new (not yet implemented) ways of filtering are really nothing new because there’s already ‘filtering’ feels like a stretch.
On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

That's sort of semantics. Or implementation ...
Semantically, "filter" implies getting the "good" stuff by excluding what isn't wanted (coffee filter, water filter, air filter) where "search" implies seeking out what is wanted amid the unwanted (needle in a haystack). But really, and in a database application especially, they are two sides of the same coin.

I'm in favor of using disparate UI elements where that makes sense for what's being found (or excluded). Like having "All messages by this user" available in menus associated with messages and in the member Directory. But note that those controls open Groups.io's standard search results interface.

I propose the same thing with the filters. One triggers the display of selected messages via the "filter" funnel icon, but it really is a UI for doing a search operation based on date, or followed / not muted, or other criteria. The search button is no different, except it starts with a dialog box to enter the target word(s) or phrase.

which relates to my concern expressed previously in this thread that
showing follow/mutes a priori, for all topics in the group message
list, might really slow things down;
That could be an issue for the presentation of my proposed "Followed" and "not Muted" badges in the default topic list, I don't know. It would be a per-user variation in the generated display, but then so many things at Groups.io are.

these implementation issues are for Mark to determine, ...
Exactly.

Shal



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Funny, every time I’ve proposed keeping track of read vs unread messages, someone splains to md that that has to be done by my browser ;p

On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

But hey, if we're going to do filtering by this and by that, filtering
by "Liked" actually implements my other recently suggested feature,
namely, a way to easily see all posts the member has Liked.
Exactly!

I think I've proposed it that way.

We'll also face this issue with keeping track of messages that a given user has and has not read, which Mark seems keen on implementing. I assume he'd do this for the web interface as well as the mobile app.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/18930

The default lists will need to have their subject text bolded for unread (I presume we'd use that typical UI display) and maybe a "New" badge. Again, a per-user variation in the standard list display.

So I'd add an "Unread" checkbox to the filter tools as well, to let the user restrict the list if so desired.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Shal, I know what ‘filter’ means lol. My point is that these kinds of ‘filtering’ have more differences than similarities, especially (possibly) when it comes to implementation, so trying to imply these new (not yet implemented) ways of filtering are really nothing new because there’s already ‘filtering’ feels like a stretch.

On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

That's sort of semantics. Or implementation ...
Semantically, "filter" implies getting the "good" stuff by excluding what isn't wanted (coffee filter, water filter, air filter) where "search" implies seeking out what is wanted amid the unwanted (needle in a haystack). But really, and in a database application especially, they are two sides of the same coin.

I'm in favor of using disparate UI elements where that makes sense for what's being found (or excluded). Like having "All messages by this user" available in menus associated with messages and in the member Directory. But note that those controls open Groups.io's standard search results interface.

I propose the same thing with the filters. One triggers the display of selected messages via the "filter" funnel icon, but it really is a UI for doing a search operation based on date, or followed / not muted, or other criteria. The search button is no different, except it starts with a dialog box to enter the target word(s) or phrase.

which relates to my concern expressed previously in this thread that
showing follow/mutes a priori, for all topics in the group message
list, might really slow things down;
That could be an issue for the presentation of my proposed "Followed" and "not Muted" badges in the default topic list, I don't know. It would be a per-user variation in the generated display, but then so many things at Groups.io are.

these implementation issues are for Mark to determine, ...
Exactly.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

But hey, if we're going to do filtering by this and by that, filtering
by "Liked" actually implements my other recently suggested feature,
namely, a way to easily see all posts the member has Liked.
Exactly!

I think I've proposed it that way.

We'll also face this issue with keeping track of messages that a given user has and has not read, which Mark seems keen on implementing. I assume he'd do this for the web interface as well as the mobile app.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/18930

The default lists will need to have their subject text bolded for unread (I presume we'd use that typical UI display) and maybe a "New" badge. Again, a per-user variation in the standard list display.

So I'd add an "Unread" checkbox to the filter tools as well, to let the user restrict the list if so desired.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

That's sort of semantics. Or implementation ...
Semantically, "filter" implies getting the "good" stuff by excluding what isn't wanted (coffee filter, water filter, air filter) where "search" implies seeking out what is wanted amid the unwanted (needle in a haystack). But really, and in a database application especially, they are two sides of the same coin.

I'm in favor of using disparate UI elements where that makes sense for what's being found (or excluded). Like having "All messages by this user" available in menus associated with messages and in the member Directory. But note that those controls open Groups.io's standard search results interface.

I propose the same thing with the filters. One triggers the display of selected messages via the "filter" funnel icon, but it really is a UI for doing a search operation based on date, or followed / not muted, or other criteria. The search button is no different, except it starts with a dialog box to enter the target word(s) or phrase.

which relates to my concern expressed previously in this thread that
showing follow/mutes a priori, for all topics in the group message
list, might really slow things down;
That could be an issue for the presentation of my proposed "Followed" and "not Muted" badges in the default topic list, I don't know. It would be a per-user variation in the generated display, but then so many things at Groups.io are.

these implementation issues are for Mark to determine, ...
Exactly.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

But hey, if we're going to do filtering by this and by that, filtering by "Liked" actually implements my other recently suggested feature, namely, a way to easily see all posts the member has Liked.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 04:32 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
This is a per-user function, and it already exists for filtering by date.

Users can also already filter by content, aka Search.
That's sort of semantics. Or implementation - filtering by date essentially just lops off a contiguous chunk of messages, very easy. Search uses some search engine and takes some amount of time to process, which relates to my concern expressed previously in this thread that showing follow/mutes a priori, for all topics in the group message list, might really slow things down; and is why I suggested instead that the system could simply look those up only at the point the user clicks on the dropdown. I could be wrong, and of course
these implementation issues are for Mark to determine, but maybe it's the reason that he never implemented filtering by hashtag? Just a guess.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

I wrote:
I agree though it should be obvious when you have a filter engaged,
and how to turn the filter off. Right now that's accomplished by
having the filter tools visible at the top of the list, with a "Clear"
button right there - as in my screenshot.
Hmm... The Clear button doesn't seem to do what I expected. It closed the tools but it didn't refresh the list to show unfiltered topics.

I think that's a bug, it should have refreshed the page to an unfiltered list.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

I would not want the Topics list to be filtered by ANYTHING. ...
Filtering it would be like putting blinders on users.
This is a per-user function, and it already exists for filtering by date.

Users can also already filter by content, aka Search. (And filter by posterid, but that UI is very different so I don't suggest following that model.)

So I don't see a problem with extending it to filtering by other information, such as "Following" or "not Muted" if the user wishes.

I agree though it should be obvious when you have a filter engaged, and how to turn the filter off. Right now that's accomplished by having the filter tools visible at the top of the list, with a "Clear" button right there - as in my screenshot.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

OTOH I suppose if you did filter the seen display, the user could undo that by unclicking "following only" and see the complete list whenever they wanted to. But I still don't like it. With filtering, they have no idea what they're missing and no motivation to unfilter. (It's sort of like the news. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Shal, 

I would not want the Topics list to be filtered by ANYTHING. I think that would be a bad mistake. The Topics list is the way for a user to easily see all the messages and topics in a particular group. In fact, it's the ONLY way to see that, per group. Filtering it would be like putting blinders on users.

My suggestion at the top of this thread is only to Follow, Unfollow, Mute, and Unmute *email* messages by using the group's topic list as an interface.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

I think it would be redundant/superfluous to have a *separate* Topics list per group, in each group, in addition to the main Topics list you see.

My suggestion for viewing, within a group's topic list, only the topics you are Following (or have not Muted) is to add those options to the topic filter (funnel icon):

Right now that opens up controls for filtering topics by date. But it would be logical enough to have checkboxes for additional filter choices here, such as Followed and not Muted.



The primary objection I can see to this would be its "stickiness", or rather lack thereof. I can imagine users might want to filter the groups topics to only Followed (or not Muted) and have that selection stay with them as they navigate the site. It is a topic similar to the stickiness of the Messages / Topics / Expanded / Polls list view selection, but perhaps easier to resolve. I suggest simply remembering the filters as one navigates the site, but one could make that an explicit choice by adding a padlock icon (which toggles between open and locked) on the filters.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

Duane,

It would appear to me that there would need to be another view, "not
followed", available to use the "follow" option. Otherwise you'd need
to click the More (or new drop down?) on each post to see if you were
already following.
To identify Followed (and Muted) topics I'd suggest another badge, F (and M) placed in the list, on the line with the author, date, and menu. In expanded view maybe near the date and message number.

That way one could tell at a glance which topics you're following (or have muted), without the need for another view option nor for opening a menu.

And the "follow" and "unfollow" options should only appear for those
that are using that setting as their delivery method.
With badges, members who don't Follow or Mute anything would not see anything new.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

J,

It would be convenient for members subscribed via "following only" to
be able to click on a topic in the topics list and follow or unfollow
it from there,
Agreed.

I think anything one can do from your home page (combined group topics) one should be able to do from an individual group's Topics.

Using the overall Topics list on the left to follow or unfollow topics
from the site is relatively awkward - unintuitive and takes too many
steps.
Agreed also.

It would be a bit handier if each message in those Topic lists had a drop-menu of actions after the date, the way the Topics in group lists do. That way one wouldn't have to open it to find the Follow/Unfollow buttons.

Shal


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

ps I think you might be unclear on the current way things work. For example, you can’t follow topics from a group site, only from the groups.io site (which lists all your groups). And ‘first’ just means you get the first, but not subsequent, messages of every topic. To get the rest you havd to follow the topic. Have you read the Help topic? Not sure, but sounds like your issues might be better addressed in GMF.


On Dec 29, 2018, at 6:37 AM, J_Catlady via Groups.Io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I’m not sure I get your problem. You at first seemed to be saying that the problem was only on a phone, or that the mobile interface was different. I wouldn’t know about that because I rarely use groups.io on my phone. 

But if you’re on the site on your computer, I don’t understand why you can’t choose to follow and unfollow topics from there. What’s the problem you’re experiencing?


On Dec 29, 2018, at 6:31 AM, Frances <frances@...> wrote:

Of course, this doesn’t work ion an iPhone. I can “follow” from a footer in an email. It takes me to a screen to click follow. I can click on Hashtags on my iPhone in my groups - topics. But I can’t subscribe to a thread (follow) from the groups.io web interface. When I am away from home, like now, I use my iPhone. 

And if I am on the groups.io website, whether I am in all topics for my subscriptions or individual group, I can’t follow a thread - ie, get future posts in my email inbox for Beta or GMF.  My subscriptions for these are first message, follow. 

Frances

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "follow" and "unfollow" dropdown for members using the group's Topics list #suggestion

 

I’m not sure I get your problem. You at first seemed to be saying that the problem was only on a phone, or that the mobile interface was different. I wouldn’t know about that because I rarely use groups.io on my phone. 

But if you’re on the site on your computer, I don’t understand why you can’t choose to follow and unfollow topics from there. What’s the problem you’re experiencing?


On Dec 29, 2018, at 6:31 AM, Frances <frances@...> wrote:

Of course, this doesn’t work ion an iPhone. I can “follow” from a footer in an email. It takes me to a screen to click follow. I can click on Hashtags on my iPhone in my groups - topics. But I can’t subscribe to a thread (follow) from the groups.io web interface. When I am away from home, like now, I use my iPhone. 

And if I am on the groups.io website, whether I am in all topics for my subscriptions or individual group, I can’t follow a thread - ie, get future posts in my email inbox for Beta or GMF.  My subscriptions for these are first message, follow. 

Frances

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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