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locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 01:25 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
and then relive
should read "and then relock"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

I’m with Brian 100%. And regarding mods having broad powers, we already do have them. The requested feature in this thread is simply a matter of improved convenience. It does not grant any more powers than they already possess since, as Brian noted (and as is obvious), mods can simply unlock and then relive any thread they want or need to make changes in.

I can’t imagine any reasonable moderator abusing this (already existing) power by locking s thread and then starting to post in it in any substantive way. Any posting or editing a normal, reasonable moderator does after unlocking a locked thread involves meta-issues.

 Allowing mods to edit or post in a locked thread makes no moderator any better or worse than they already are. It just makes things easier.


On Jan 11, 2019, at 1:17 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 03:19 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I have no problem with that if it's unlocked for all. My objection is to locking it for general members and than continuing to post or edit as group owner.

To be clearer than I was originally... locked should be the end of posting/editing until it's unlocked.
Sorry, but my practice is to lock and then post the message stating the topic is locked.   It's what I'm used to doing anywhere else, and I have yet to see what I consider a reasonable justification for that being a bad thing.

I have never seen a moderator "continuing to post" in any meaningful sense or edit, unless really necessary, after locking a topic.  I have had topics locked where someone posted their own private information, which they shouldn't have and which policy does not allow.  I can and do edit that out whenever I find it, whether a topic is active or locked.

Owners and moderators should have very broad powers.  If you don't choose to exercise them, fine, but they're customarily available in multiple other venues.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 03:19 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I have no problem with that if it's unlocked for all. My objection is to locking it for general members and than continuing to post or edit as group owner.

To be clearer than I was originally... locked should be the end of posting/editing until it's unlocked.
Sorry, but my practice is to lock and then post the message stating the topic is locked.   It's what I'm used to doing anywhere else, and I have yet to see what I consider a reasonable justification for that being a bad thing.

I have never seen a moderator "continuing to post" in any meaningful sense or edit, unless really necessary, after locking a topic.  I have had topics locked where someone posted their own private information, which they shouldn't have and which policy does not allow.  I can and do edit that out whenever I find it, whether a topic is active or locked.

Owners and moderators should have very broad powers.  If you don't choose to exercise them, fine, but they're customarily available in multiple other venues.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:10 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I don't see why locking a door to some entity, whether it's an entrance to a group, a home, or a business, means you have to lock the door to the owners.
following on: because sometimes you have to go in and clean up. And that's the main circumstance under which I edit messages.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from Brian Vogel at 1/11/2019 07:48 PM UTC:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 02:41 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Locked should be the end of it... make the decision wisely.

But it isn't always. Many moderators impose a cooling down period by locking a topic for a period of their choosing, and unlock it later.

I have no problem with that if it's unlocked for all. My objection is to locking it for general members and than continuing to post or edit as group owner.

To be clearer than I was originally... locked should be the end of posting/editing until it's unlocked.

Jim H


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 11:41 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I also think there's something a bit "wrong" with locking a topic for everyone else and then posting to or editing messages within that locked topic.
I don't see why locking a door to some entity, whether it's an entrance to a group, a home, or a business, means you have to lock the door to the owners.

There are very often valid reasons for wanting or needing to edit a message in a topic that has been locked, as evidenced by the desires expressed in this thread (regardless of the means of implementation or the extent of convenience or inconvenience). Often, the topic has been locked explicitly *because* of a problematic post that requires editing or redacting of impermissible text or information, and/or that is inflammatory and beginning to lead to other unpermitted text or information.

I can unsubscribe from groups where some owner abuses the privilege.

Exactly. And good group owners understand that and don't take editing messages lightly. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 02:41 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Locked should be the end of it... make the decision wisely.
But it isn't always.  Many moderators impose a cooling down period by locking a topic for a period of their choosing, and unlock it later.  I don't, but I've seen that style on more than one occasion where even the idea of actively moderating post by post makes no sense in the heat of the present moment, which will pass.

We've seen lock/unlock sequences, sometimes repeated, on this very forum because of the automatic locking feature employed here.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from Bruce Bowman at 1/11/2019 01:14 PM UTC:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 11:22 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think moderators (with the appropriate privileges) should bypass that limitation. Currently, I have to unlock the topic to edit any message in it, and then go back and lock it again.
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason. With no way to reasonably "un-edit" a message, I prefer to keep this safeguard in place, rather than experience an "oh s**t" moment. Having to click a few extra buttons to bypass it is no big hardship and provides a sanity check.

I agree. I also think there's something a bit "wrong" with locking a topic for everyone else and then posting to or editing messages within that locked topic. Locked should be the end of it... make the decision wisely.

That said, I don't much care past saying it this once... since I can choose to not edit a locked topic in my own groups and I can unsubscribe from groups where some owner abuses the privilege.

Jim H


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:24 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
you don’t appoint moderators randomly. At least, I don’t.
And, quite seriously, if you do without due consideration that's your (some other you) problem.

There are responsibilities, and temperaments, that should be essential to the role.  If someone hands those responsibilities out willy-nilly that shouldn't impose restrictions on those who actually do their due diligence.

Moderators should not be problematic if chosen appropriately.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

And regarding Brian’s point that moderators are assumed to be savvy enough to do the job, that also applies to the other thread where someone was worried that moderators would inadvertently approve mdmbership requests in a restricted group before the pending questionnaire comes in. It’s ok to assume users are not savvy and make every allowance for them, but you don’t appoint moderators randomly. At least, I don’t.


On Jan 11, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason.
I doubt anyone would argue that point.

I doubt that most owners and moderators are not capable of exercising enough forethought with regard to editing a message or topic title that there is any significant risk from allowing them to do so at will.

The problem now is that one must unlock a topic in order to make any changes.  This has the potential to allow random members to jump right in on a topic again, and I've seen that sort of thing happen.   I wouldn't object if I were presented with a dialog or similar saying, "This topic is locked.  Are you certain you wish to proceed?," but then allowing me to say, "Yes."  If that's not enough (too much, I'd say for myself) to prevent an "oh s**t" moment then nothing will.

On BleepingComputer.com, where I'm currently a moderator, the following appears above the compose area for locked topics, in red:  Be aware that this topic is locked. You have permission to reply to locked topics.

All of the other moderator controls for said topic are available via the normal controls (delete, split, etc.) sans any warning at all.

Everyone's different, but my expectation of anyone who's in the role of moderator, anywhere, is that they would be very circumspect before taking any action that's irrevocable (whether literally or practically).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

What  Brian points out is of the essence. It’s more dangerous right now, with having to unlock a topic, edit the message, and then rush right back ASAP to lock it again. I usually put the topic temporarily on moderation to avoid mishaps, but that’s even more steps. And it’s not ideal to even allow messages to come in during the interim, while it’s on moderation, and respond to them individually with ecplanstions thst the topic is ‘actually locked.’ IMO the current situation is very clearly the wrong way to do things and should be fixed.


On Jan 11, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason.
I doubt anyone would argue that point.

I doubt that most owners and moderators are not capable of exercising enough forethought with regard to editing a message or topic title that there is any significant risk from allowing them to do so at will.

The problem now is that one must unlock a topic in order to make any changes.  This has the potential to allow random members to jump right in on a topic again, and I've seen that sort of thing happen.   I wouldn't object if I were presented with a dialog or similar saying, "This topic is locked.  Are you certain you wish to proceed?," but then allowing me to say, "Yes."  If that's not enough (too much, I'd say for myself) to prevent an "oh s**t" moment then nothing will.

On BleepingComputer.com, where I'm currently a moderator, the following appears above the compose area for locked topics, in red:  Be aware that this topic is locked. You have permission to reply to locked topics.

All of the other moderator controls for said topic are available via the normal controls (delete, split, etc.) sans any warning at all.

Everyone's different, but my expectation of anyone who's in the role of moderator, anywhere, is that they would be very circumspect before taking any action that's irrevocable (whether literally or practically).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason.
I doubt anyone would argue that point.

I doubt that most owners and moderators are not capable of exercising enough forethought with regard to editing a message or topic title that there is any significant risk from allowing them to do so at will.

The problem now is that one must unlock a topic in order to make any changes.  This has the potential to allow random members to jump right in on a topic again, and I've seen that sort of thing happen.   I wouldn't object if I were presented with a dialog or similar saying, "This topic is locked.  Are you certain you wish to proceed?," but then allowing me to say, "Yes."  If that's not enough (too much, I'd say for myself) to prevent an "oh s**t" moment then nothing will.

On BleepingComputer.com, where I'm currently a moderator, the following appears above the compose area for locked topics, in red:  Be aware that this topic is locked. You have permission to reply to locked topics.

All of the other moderator controls for said topic are available via the normal controls (delete, split, etc.) sans any warning at all.

Everyone's different, but my expectation of anyone who's in the role of moderator, anywhere, is that they would be very circumspect before taking any action that's irrevocable (whether literally or practically).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

It actually is sometimes worse than a couple of extra clicks, if the message to be edited is recent (which is normally the case) but the thread is old (which is frequently the case). The navigation between them in that case is a real PITA. I don’t consider this ‘feature’ safeguard. And even if it’s a safeguard, there’s a trade off and a limit to how many safeguards you want. I think this particular ‘safeguard’ is not intentional. It’s just an unintentional artifact.


On Jan 11, 2019, at 5:14 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 11:22 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think moderators (with the appropriate privileges) should bypass that limitation. Currently, I have to unlock the topic to edit any message in it, and then go back and lock it again.
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason. With no way to reasonably "un-edit" a message, I prefer to keep this safeguard in place, rather than experience an "oh s**t" moment. Having to click a few extra buttons to bypass it is no big hardship and provides a sanity check.

My $0.02,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 11:22 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think moderators (with the appropriate privileges) should bypass that limitation. Currently, I have to unlock the topic to edit any message in it, and then go back and lock it again.
I suspect that in most groups, topics are locked for a good reason. With no way to reasonably "un-edit" a message, I prefer to keep this safeguard in place, rather than experience an "oh s**t" moment. Having to click a few extra buttons to bypass it is no big hardship and provides a sanity check.

My $0.02,
Bruce


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 07:38 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Since it is the group owner or a moderator who determines whether something gets locked or not, it makes little sense to restrict their range of options once a topic is locked.
Exactly!
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I'll say it again, and have said it before when this has come up, elsewhere this privilege is standard operating procedure, and should be so for Groups.io.

Since it is the group owner or a moderator who determines whether something gets locked or not, it makes little sense to restrict their range of options once a topic is locked.

I can both edit and post to topics that have been locked on another site where I am a moderator right now, and that's also been the case on several others.

I'll also edit certain posts when "the keyword" or "the key phrase" has a significant typo in it that would make the topic unlikely to be found by future searchers.  This doesn't happen all that often, but it does happen.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 05:01 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
the capability of locking a message (and thus the topic) at the time of its origination. Send Locked comes to mind...
This already exists if you're starting a new thread, by using a hashtag set to Locked. But of course, you can't do it in an existing thread. So I agree that it would be handy.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 09:55 AM, Marina wrote:
I wish to add that owners and moderators (with appropriate privileges) should be able to bypass all limitations,
Now that I can support, although I don't think I would wish to edit an existing message for a number of reasons.

My own particular example would be to add to a locked (and perhaps "sticky") Group Management thread; at the moment this requires the thread to be unlocked, a new message sent, and then promptly locked again; all well and good but as sent the accompanying email will enable members to attempt to reply. A simple "lock override" capability would be excellent, as would the capability of locking a message (and thus the topic) at the time of its origination. Send Locked comes to mind...

I can see risks in being able to send attachments when members cannot; even though we make no secret of the fact that for various reasons we do not allow them we still get people trying; if I or other Moderators sent out attachments on a Group I moderate then I suspect that we would get even more members trying it and wondering why their attachments weren't appearing, with all the attendant "clearing up" afterwards to be handled.

Chris


locked Re: Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

Marina
 

I am all in favour of Catlady's suggestion and I wish to add that owners and moderators (with appropriate privileges) should be able to bypass all limitations, including sending attachments in groups where attachments are not permitted.
Sometimes I find it difficult to moderate my group because I am subject to the same restrictions which apply to members.

Thank you.
Marina


locked Allow mods with appropriate privileges to edit messages in a locked topic #suggestion

 

Very often, I have to edit a message right after locking the topic. Yet you can't do that: locked a topic makes all messages in it uneditable. I think moderators (with the appropriate privileges) should bypass that limitation. Currently, I have to unlock the topic to edit any message in it, and then go back and lock it again.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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