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moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Marina
 

Sorry for being so dumb, but where can I find the Location field in a pending member's message?
A member has just applied to join my group and sent a message to the group owner with a brief introduction, as required. Apparently, the message was sent by a mobile through Groups.io website.
I have checked his message both online, in the Owner's message tab, and through Gmail ("Show original"), but I haven't been able to find any Location field.

Thanks for your help,
Marina


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

J_Catlady wrote:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 02:56 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
an individual opt-in/out during the join/apply flow.
That would really defeat the purpose. Plus, if someone opted out I would not approve their membership.
Exactly what I thought. This isn't (or shouldn't be) a choice to give or not this information to the mods. It would then be too easy to a spammer or any person not well intentioned to simple don't give this info and still be able to join the group.

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 02:56 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
an individual opt-in/out during the join/apply flow.
That would really defeat the purpose. Plus, if someone opted out I would not approve their membership.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

Helen,

I find this grossly intrusive. ... For certain groups (e.g. certain
heath issues), this could even put people off joining.
I see your point, much as I appreciate having that info in other types of groups.

Any way to turn this intrusive monitoring off please?
I can think of two ways of handling it: a group level control or an individual opt-in/out during the join/apply flow.

If it must be on, it should be made clear to applicants that this
information is being sent to group mods.
As a group level control (which is what I think you are seeking) its status should at the very least be included in the home-page list of Group Settings. Whether that is prominent enough or not I'm not certain.

I think a group like your example would use some language in its group Description to reinforce the reassurance that the option is off. For groups that have the option on, I don't expect them to use their Description for scary warnings. Nor am I really enthusiastic about having a scary disclaimer around the Join/Apply button on their home pages.

However, as things stand, once they've clicked that button the information has been delivered to the mods. So as much as I detest it, the best option might be to have an intervening page (or pop-up) when a user clicks that button.

As an individual control, such a notification page (or pop-up) could include Yes and No buttons to make an individual opt-in or opt-out of sending this info to the mods.

Shal












On 2019-06-22 8:25 AM, Helen wrote:
I find this grossly intrusive. I can see where people are to the nearest small town, which may be helpful for local associations, but which for my international groups is frankly irrelevant. And their OS is their business, not mine. For certain groups (e.g. certain heath issues), this could even put people off joining.
I vet people via the requirement to respond to a questionnaire, which works just fine. Any way to turn this intrusive monitoring off please?
If it must be on, it should be made clear to applicants that this information is being sent to group mods.
Helen


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

I have a test group and full control there to try things so I was able to "mostly" replicate what Shal has suggested.

By the way, I am not unbiased on this subject. I believe that Shal has the correct answer as to what the "elegant solution" is.

This is what I was able to try.

Owner: Open primary browser window logged onto a group that I am Owner of.
Moderator: Open a second browser and logon with a Moderator account to that group.
Owner: Change the Moderator account to "Member" and Save
Moderator: Refresh browser. Note that the Home Mod badge has disappeared. We are now viewing as a normal member.
Owner: Change the Moderator account to "Moderator". This is where some magic has to be added by Mark. The Moderator permissions need to be remembered and returned when switching back. For testing, do this manually and then Save.
Moderator: Refresh browser. All previous Moderator functions are back to working as usual.

This seems to do the job. It also proves that the Moderator does not need to log off and back on for this functionality to work.

What I could not do, of course, was to add Shal's drop-down addition to the Home button. To address Chris's point about possible confusion, I suggest that the Home button be made a bit smarter in that when it goes into downgraded Moderator mode, the badge should change to a grayed out Mod badge instead of removing the badge altogether. The drop-down will also need the existing "Home" link as one option, so a toggle wouldn't be sufficient. Hopefully, Mark can force a browser refresh here when a change is made/

I am concerned that there may be issues making this work for an Owner account, but maybe I am just overly pessimistic.

--
Gerald


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 05:17 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially.
(My underlining)

Although the idea of using that tab as a toggle of some sort clearly has merit, as described above it rather violates the Principle of Least Astonishment.

Membership of beta is a minority interest amongst owners and moderators - just look at the numbers - and not all may bother to read "Updates" so IMHO the default view should be their normal operating status.

Chris


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Dano,

If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then
come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should
notice.
I agree.

Which is exactly why I suggested a location that is visible on every page of a group.

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some
jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means.
I think your objection is spurious; Jonathan adequately explained what the terminology implied. Hopefully my post would help there too. I didn't rely on the reader knowing what sudo does, I explained my proposal without jargon.

Shal


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

J noted, "I feel like this idea has gotten out of control."

I understand your sentiment, J. But I also have faith that Mark will winnow the grain from the chaff and, if he finds merit in the idea, will use our thoughts to better groups.io. He may well find a much more elegant solution than any of us can imagine.

Dano


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Agree with Dano. I would hate, hate, hate to have to switch to “mod view” when I want to act as a moderator in my own group, which is mainly what I do. It’s already bad enough that I have to click on “activity” to see the mod functions.

I feel like this idea has gotten out of control.

On Jun 22, 2019, at 10:23 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

Shal -
I would like to defend the other direction, switching to the member view briefly without leaving the page. Allow me to explain.

Everyone has a different style of learning and functioning. Some people are readers and need to see the words in print, while others are visual and need to see the actions take place with the flip of a switch. Others are easily distractible by things along the way in changing pages. If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should notice. And then going through the log-off/log-on routine again further breaks my train of thought.

I would much rather see the owner/moderator view as default, as that often prompts me to actions I need to deal with. Having to go to another page to change the view and then come back is no better than having to do the log-off/log-on routine and then turn around and do it again just to get back to what I was working on. It would seem that having the owner/moderator icon change on the members page seem like an quick way to really confuse members.

I think the idea of who owns the files is a red herring to this discussion. I want to know what an ordinary user might see. I already know members can edit and remove their own files. I already have too many cases where the member was lost in the transfer or left the group, and as group owner I am left as the default owner. But what is an ordinary member (or "mere mortal" as jslcanuck referred to it) seeing?

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means. I refer to: "logging in and working as root", "su'ing", "we should sudo instead", and "mod-do". If you want to drive away the more average user's input, using technical terms will certainly help that happen. Fortunately I believe, after working with groups for all these years, Mark understands the value of making things more useful for the common user.

This is my viewpoint, and I offer it for Mark's consideration.

Dano

----- Original Message -----
From: Shal Farley

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach.
For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a
member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes
struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge
on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with
Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it
would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role.
This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Shal -
I would like to defend the other direction, switching to the member view briefly without leaving the page. Allow me to explain.

Everyone has a different style of learning and functioning. Some people are readers and need to see the words in print, while others are visual and need to see the actions take place with the flip of a switch. Others are easily distractible by things along the way in changing pages. If I have to jump out to another page to flip that switch and then come back, I am much less likely to see differences that I should notice. And then going through the log-off/log-on routine again further breaks my train of thought.

I would much rather see the owner/moderator view as default, as that often prompts me to actions I need to deal with. Having to go to another page to change the view and then come back is no better than having to do the log-off/log-on routine and then turn around and do it again just to get back to what I was working on. It would seem that having the owner/moderator icon change on the members page seem like an quick way to really confuse members.

I think the idea of who owns the files is a red herring to this discussion. I want to know what an ordinary user might see. I already know members can edit and remove their own files. I already have too many cases where the member was lost in the transfer or left the group, and as group owner I am left as the default owner. But what is an ordinary member (or "mere mortal" as jslcanuck referred to it) seeing?

Another problem in this discussion is that someone dragged in some jargon and not everyone knows exactly what it means. I refer to: "logging in and working as root", "su'ing", "we should sudo instead", and "mod-do". If you want to drive away the more average user's input, using technical terms will certainly help that happen. Fortunately I believe, after working with groups for all these years, Mark understands the value of making things more useful for the common user.

This is my viewpoint, and I offer it for Mark's consideration.

Dano

----- Original Message -----
From: Shal Farley

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach.
For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a
member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes
struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge
on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with
Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it
would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role.
This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Jonathan,

Makes me wonder now whether there should be a mod-do, or a way of
operating as a normal user and only stepping up to mod privileges when
needed.
Interesting.

I think I may like this better than the usual "view as member" approach. For one thing it implicitly resolves the "which member" question: you.

It reverses the default view, and in that way reinforces a member-centric view of the group, something that moderators sometimes struggle with understanding.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that the "Owner" (or "Moderator") badge on the Home button become the user interface for this. Someone with Owner (or Moderator) role would see that say "Member" initially. But it would have a drop-down or other means to select their elevated role. This same means can be used to switch back.

Shal


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 06:01 PM, Leeni wrote:
it would be more beneficial to an owner to have that ISP show up on the pending application and then also after the member joins on the membership list for reference.
Agreed. The current access method is of very limited usefulness.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

Ok, I found it in the email. (Mark, you can delete my other pending message about not being able to find it.:-)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 06:02 PM, Gerald Boutin wrote:
On the web UI, it is under More >> View Source The command on your email program varies. eg) Outlook 2010: "View Source", GMAIL: "Show Original".
Yes, I found all that, but it's not much help.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 06:02 PM, Helen wrote:
She probably still is a member of my group
Not unless she's using one of her aliases. Her groups.io account was disabled/deleted at that point. 

All group crises pass.
True, sort of. This person is still on the warpath outside of groups.io.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On the web UI, it is under More >> View Source

The command on your email program varies. eg) Outlook 2010: "View Source", GMAIL: "Show Original".

This is info that is readily available to anyone receiving emails or using a browser. Mark just made it easier to find when an Owner / Moderator is doing their job.

--
Gerald


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

She probably still is a member of my group, but I'm only concerned if people cause trouble and fortunately that seems to have passed us by. The problem of fake members hasn't happened in years, for which I am very grateful, but if it did happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world. All group crises pass.

Helen


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Leeni
 

That information can be helpful in some kinds of groups where members join a group for the wrong reasons (spying)
 
I would say while it is good to have the ISP and location on the pending application which unless we write down or save this email which most owners do not, it would be more beneficial to an owner to have that ISP show up on the pending application and then also after the member joins on the membership list for reference.
 
Leeni 
 
  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Helen
Date: 6/22/2019 3:46:36 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Pending subscription message now including location/other info
 
IP addresses may be available to the host (groups.io in this instance) but not routinely to a user of that host IMO. These are groups, not online shops or banks.
 
I haven't had to deal with a fake member for years but in such cases I would deal with that person without needing to invade the privacy of the thousands of legitimate members, for whom I have zero interest in whether they really are located where they say they are. But then I'm quite quaint in this modern age in that I am a big fan of online privacy, which is one reason why I don't insist upon people's real names when they join my groups.
 
Helen
 
 


moderated Re: fix toggling of alpha column-order vs which column ordered by #suggestion

 

Mark,

Without some reasonable amount of work, I can't make it so individual
columns remember their settings.
Too bad. I didn't consider the effort it might take. Presumably the effort is because it (the last seen direction of each column) would need to be remembered per-user, perhaps in a cookie?

The problem is that when sorting in a database, sorting most recent
first on a number (ie date) corresponds to sorting from z to a on a
string. I'm sorting the same 'direction' according to the database,
but it looks like the opposite to you.
That I understood.

I don't think it would have been of nearly as much concern if the columns each remembered their "last seen" direction; which is the only reason I tossed that idea into this topic.

I've made the following change on the members page. If it's at least
sufficient for now, I'll propagate it elsewhere. ... Please let me
know what you think.
I think it is fine now. I primarily didn't like having a direction change in one column affect the direction of another.

Shal


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Agree with Dano. No matter what Mark decides to do, this is not the place to submit that xyz feature is “too much work” for Mark, or “anyway, there’s a workaround,” or “moderators should do their jobs and this is one of them.” Mark himself has said to lay off this kind of talk in beta. Let people make their suggestions and let Mark decide. He is completely capable of deciding what’s too much work for him and what isn’t. 😊

On Jun 22, 2019, at 3:29 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
Rather than asking Mark to find a solution in software, I submit that your description brings us back to the idea of an owner / moderator having an "ordinary" subscription so that the different views can be determined "in house".
There are whole lot of niceties on groups.io that were evolved in from the very beginning of beta based on suggestions such as this. Mark has always seemed to want groups.io to be the best possible system for running groups, and that includes ease of operation for moderators. So users have offered a lot of their own ideas.

Remember that Mark is the one who will read all the input and make his own judgement on what he considers useful or frivolous. And he may see a possibility that makes things simpler in a different way. We don't make any decisions here on beta. Workarounds are worked out in GMF, but suggestions are offered here. That's what this string has been about - passing along an idea. Yes, there is a workaround for this, just like there's a workaround for a great many functions that have been built into groups.io, but this just might make some owners' and moderators' jobs here just a little easier. Not everyone who runs a group is a programmer. Some of us know enough to get through things, but we can see where a simple switch would save a lot of time and perhaps the loss of a thought as we work through the log in/log out process and then reverse it to come back to where we were.

Dano


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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