Date   

moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 11:09 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
All I had to do to include the selective quote from your message was to highlight the bit I wanted to focus on and then click on "Reply". The highlighted passage was automatically imported into the reply for me. It could hardly be easier.
And this has been "standard operating procedure" on a wide variety of web forum interfaces for a very long time now.

It makes me crazy on the other site where I am heavily involved as a moderator that it doesn't work this way.  Your only choice with the quoting mechanism is to quote the whole message and then take out what you don't want/need in the reply composition window.  That's a grand PITA when you want a single line or two as context from a hugely long previous post.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:52 AM, Samuel Murray wrote:
By the way, I've just noticed that when you reply via the web interface, the original e-mail is not quoted. Now I understand why people [think that they need to] copy/paste stuff when replying via the web interface.
Quoting an entire previous message when replying to it is "very bad form" IMO unless it is absolutely essental  All I had to do to include the selective quote from your message was to highlight the bit I wanted to focus on and then click on "Reply". The highlighted passage was automatically imported into the reply for me. It could hardly be easier.

Chris


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Saa umuel,

          How threading is presented is generally controllable within the e-mail client itself.  Even in your example, the end result in following classic threaded view versus conversation view is whether the date sort is ascending or descending for all practical intents and purposes.  Outlook can be set to use the "classic indented view" in conversations and give you the threaded view you show.

           As has already been pointed out, threading is generally handled in different ways by different clients.  But whatever the method, within a client the behavior is consistent.  Threading can easily be broken in many where both subject and header information must match or where only subject must match.  One tiny tweak to the subject line breaks threading, and that happens in Groups.io all the time.   One of my primary tasks as a moderator is "re-threading" topics that have been accidentally split by one of the end users tweaking the subject line.   It drives me utterly insane when there's been a topic on, say, "Knitting a Classic Cable Sweater," where at various times users do things like changing the subject, mid-topic, to something like, "I know this tip for making this sweater!," or, "Thanks for all the help" at the end.  Long term users of e-mail lists and online forums both were taught, at one time, that you never, ever, ever do this.

            As a general rule, I believe in educating users to the conventions that have been commonly in use for decades now for communities such as this one.  Others wish to come up with ways for the software to "figure out" how to manage behaviors [as far as subject changes, etc.] that they shouldn't have to manage in the first place.  In my experience, all that does is make things messier, and messier, and messier as people keep  doing all sorts of stuff they need to know that you just don't do.

            Cyber society, like society at large, has conventions that those entering it are obligated to learn and use.  Their own choices of platforms imposes the obligation on them to learn how to accomplish the same thing multiple ways.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: CHRIS - [beta] photos -- need feature to delete more than one photo at a time - SUSIE

Susie <SuzyQuda0310@...>
 

ok, I understand.

and yes, they do need to be deleted one at a time.

In a message dated 2/27/2019 10:24:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrisjones12@... writes:

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 02:26 PM, Susie wrote:
only options for the photos are:
Message
Download
Delete
Report This Photo
Ah... are you looking to delete "proper" photos that have been uploaded or photos that have been sent as Attachments. Your mention of "Message" above points to your looking at the emailed photos album, i.e. those sent as attachments, and indeed there is no "move" capability for those.

They can only be deleted one by one, and yes it is tedious, especially if your subscribers have images as part of their signatures.

Chris


moderated Re: CHRIS - [beta] photos -- need feature to delete more than one photo at a time - SUSIE

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 02:26 PM, Susie wrote:
only options for the photos are:
Message
Download
Delete
Report This Photo
Ah... are you looking to delete "proper" photos that have been uploaded or photos that have been sent as Attachments. Your mention of "Message" above points to your looking at the emailed photos album, i.e. those sent as attachments, and indeed there is no "move" capability for those.

They can only be deleted one by one, and yes it is tedious, especially if your subscribers have images as part of their signatures.

Chris


moderated Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Linda
 

Hello,
Having to go through the whole member list to nudge NCs to confirm is time consuming. If the NCs could be listed separately, as bouncing members are, it would be very helpful.
 
Thanks for ALL you do, Mark!
 
Linda


moderated Re: CHRIS - [beta] photos -- need feature to delete more than one photo at a time - SUSIE

Susie <SuzyQuda0310@...>
 

Hi Chris,

I appreciate you replying about this.
I just opened the Photos Section and I don't see an option to Move any photos to another album.
I would have to open each photo in question, and delete one at a time.
only options for the photos are:
Message
Download
Delete
Report This Photo

since we are limited to a specific storage limit with a free account, there's nothing that tells me what size each photo is, or to be able to sort by size, to delete the larger files first, to make more space.


In a message dated 2/27/2019 6:45:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrisjones12@... writes:

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 03:07 PM, Susie wrote:
I think it would a nice feature in the Photos Section to be able to select more than one photo at a time,
There is one option that might save a lot of clicks and therefore time, but the actual saving may depend on how your Photo archive is structured.

Ceate a new album called For Deletion. Go through your photos and use the Move function to place unwanted photos in the For Deletion album.

Then simply delete the For Deletion album in one go.

Chris.


moderated Re: Apply to Join button on the main group screen

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/02/26 11:21 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

I have a restricted group, and I do not want people to be able to apply to join the group from the main group page (the one you see if you aren't logged in).
In the mean time, you can set a "pending" notice at:
https://groups.io/g/zalang/membernotices
which will be sent to any members who apply to join.

It won't prevent all the rest (e.g. users will still get the message asking them to confirm their e-mail address, etc.).

I agree that there should be an option to remove the "Apply for membership" button, at least.

Samuel


moderated Re: Apply to Join button on the main group screen

Beth Weld
 

Thank you both. I have put messages on the home page - in large letters in RED, but it seems to do no good. My group is restricted in that people can't just join. I would like to further restrict it by not even having the apply button available.  I don't want to take the group out of the IO directory in case people see it there and are interested. But - we have a separate process (as others do too), and it has to be followed before we direct add them. Maybe a point that I didn't state - we are a premium group and don't use the invitation process so are restricted more than most.
Thanks
Beth


moderated Re: photos -- need feature to delete more than one photo at a time - SUSIE

Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 03:07 PM, Susie wrote:
I think it would a nice feature in the Photos Section to be able to select more than one photo at a time,
There is one option that might save a lot of clicks and therefore time, but the actual saving may depend on how your Photo archive is structured.

Ceate a new album called For Deletion. Go through your photos and use the Move function to place unwanted photos in the For Deletion album.

Then simply delete the For Deletion album in one go.

Chris.


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/02/27 11:20 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:

There must be a clear and easy to find option for people to reply to a
post direct to sender and quote the original. The fact that people keep
asking means it is not clear and easy...
Unfortunately, quoting the original (when using an e-mail program) can only happen if the user clicks a button in the e-mail program itself.

I'm sure you're aware, there is no way to formulate a hyperlink in an e-mail that causes the subsequently opening draft message to contain a quote from the original message.

My advice to users of my Yahoogroup has always been:
1. Go to the bottom of the message and copy the sender's address.
2. Then click the REPLY button.
3. Then delete the group's e-mail address in the TO field and paste the sender's address in it.

This involves three steps (too many for some, but not too many for most) but is reasonably simple.

With the current HTML footer, I would have to explain to users that they must right-click the "Reply To Sender" link to get the sender's e-mail address, and hope that users' e-mail programs are smart enough to strip the fake "subject line" from the link when pasting in the TO field.

What do you think of the Yahoogroups method, i.e. that the sender's e-mail address is mentioned in clear text in the footer?

==

By the way, I've just noticed that when you reply via the web interface, the original e-mail is not quoted. Now I understand why people [think that they need to] copy/paste stuff when replying via the web interface.

Oh, wait, I've just noticed the small balloon icon in the "Formatting" toolbar, and yes: that is the button you should click to quote the post you're replying to.

It also took me a while to figure out how to send a reply to sender via the web interface. Most intuitive for me would have been that the "More" nav burger would have an option "Reply to sender", or that clicking the "Reply" link would give me that option, or that there be a separate button called "Reply To Sender". Instead, you have to click the "Reply" link and then click the "Private" link on the far right of the screen, which causes the green "Reply to Group" button to change into a blue "Reply To Sender" button. Worth putting that in my group's FAQ...

Samuel


moderated Re: photos -- need feature to delete more than one photo at a time - SUSIE

dave w
 

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 04:07 AM, Susie wrote:
think it would a nice feature in the Photos Section to be able to select more than one photo at a time, to delete.
or, maybe a feature to select Edit, and choose which photos you'd like to delete, or select dates to be deleted, etc.
 
Susie,
I and others have to agree with the basics of this.
I'm guessing something of the interface is limiting the ability to get it done quickly.
No I haven't checked every thread before posting this,
respectfully, davew


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/02/27 10:18 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

Samuel wrote:
(For some reason, I don't receive my own posts/replies to this group,
This group only? That I can't explain.
Ignore that...

I had a closer look and it turns out that *some* of my replies and *some* of my initial posts are not delivered to me in this group. Some of my messages in the "[beta] Suggested updates to message footer" topic did not come through to me. Ignore, ignore...

On a different note, purely for interest sake: Thunderbird believes that your e-mail (the one I'm replying to here) is in fact a reply to Brian's "We are in entirely different worlds" e-mail, even though in this case I did receive my own e-mail as well.

Samuel


moderated Re: photos

dave w
 

I would like to make a suggestion for the iogroups.
>>It would be great to be able to delete photos in attachments and not let the person who wrote the email be notified.

No. "in attachments". Whatever do you mean? The only way to stop an attachment is ban them entirely. Do Not Allow settings. Otherwise stand next to every person who may attach something to email and scream at them "DON'T SEND THAT"...
In other words, educate and then Moderate your members. Sad but necessary actions, which is why you are given the electronic means to do so.

>> Also the email photo folder is really not necessary and would be great to be able to eliminate that.

No. Absolutely disagree. It is necessary. It is a record of what "attachments" or "in-line" objects WERE actually sent by email or created.
What you do with it is your concern. I find less enthusiastic but grumpy owners just ignore it. Yes it will fill up with crap like ignorant sig files, graphics and memos, but see above.

>>These are my suggestions and if you ever do this please let me know.
This is a self-serve service. You will have to subscribe or monitor for changes (unless theres a paid for subscription I am probably not aware of),

respectfully, davew


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Dave Sergeant
 

Er, no. SOME email programs do threading the correct way with the
header in-reply-to data. Many use the subject line. Pegasus Mail that I
use does it this way. Not perfect and various things mess it up but by
and large it does the job. And having got used to threaded email I
can't imagine a life without it.

Going back to the original question, one of the problems with GIO is
that the sender's email address is not shown at all in the online
version (reasons understood) and in email it may be 'corrupted' by the
rewriting process GIO uses on various providers (as per seperate
thread). We have the 'private' option online and 'reply to sender' in
HTML footers but there is no 'reply to sender' in plain text footers.
Often people ask in a posting 'tell me your email address so I can
reply direct' when the address is clear to see in the original post
even if they have to decode the GIO rewriting stuff (but not if they
are reading online).

There must be a clear and easy to find option for people to reply to a
post direct to sender and quote the original. The fact that people keep
asking means it is not clear and easy...

Dave

On 27 Feb 2019 at 0:19, Samuel Murray wrote:

No, e-mail programs that support threading don't use the subject line as
a "threader", but rather use clues left in the e-mail's headers. If you
send a new e-mail that just happens to have the same subject line as a
message sent shortly before, e-mail programs that support threading will
consider your message to be the start of a new thread.

http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

 

Samuel,


(For some reason, I don't receive my own posts/replies to this group,

This group only? That I can't explain.
Do your own posts get redirected to Spam? That happens with some services when they see your own email address as the From in a message that arrived "from outside".

If not, and if you mean any Groups.io group then perhaps it relates to this.

You may need to have Mark add your email domain to the Gmail list.

Hmm... calling it a Gmail list may be a misnomer. Possibly there are other email services with the same or related behavior regarding one's own messages arriving back from a mailing list.

Shal


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/02/27 01:32 AM, Ken Kloeber via Groups.Io wrote:

it’s easy enough to do a copy > past (into the reply email) BUT it’s equally easy to do a select all > delete (or backspace) to wipe out the bottom copy (in the reply email.)
I don't think we should rely on copy/pasting too much, particularly since it is becoming more difficult for computer users to work with separate windows (Windows 10 interface, Android interface, etc).

There was a time when working with separate windows was normal, but it is fast becoming a nerds-only skill. If people can copy/paste, then that's okay, but if the system is designed to require copy/pasting in order to make quoting possible, its actually going to encourage users not to quote.

What I find (more?) annoying is when, in a reply, there is no place marker as to what was the original msg vs the reply (see 2c bottom copy.)  Indent quoting doesn't show up in all email apps/clients (doesn’t show up in iMail (iOS on a 6s.)
Yes, different programs have different deficiencies. I'm sure an iMail user will quickly realise that there is either something odd about his mail program or about messages being posted to his mail program. And if not, then there is nothing we can do about it.

In some of the posts in the GMF group, replies to replies are "indented" by adding extra spaces but without doubling the ">" characters, so even the way programs "quote" stuff differ.

My suggestion is not intended to offer a solution to any of these things. There is no solution for that.

Samuel








Fodder for consideration.
Cheers
-k
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2c.
*Re: RFE: Moderate messages with keywords*
From: Samuel Murray <mailto:samuelmurray@yandex.com?subject=Re:%20RFE%3A%20Moderate%20messages%20with%20keywords>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:41:04 EST
On 2019/02/26 06:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Probably a waste of time. When some one twigs what is going on they will use
"T H A N K S"
I'm not trying to catch out people who are trying to catch me out. I just want to catch people who are in auto-pilot mode. As soon as a member starts doing what you're talking about, he'll get one last laugh, and then the boot.
I don't fool myself into thinking that such a filter will catch all instances of flagged terms, but it may catch enough of them to make it worth while.
Samuel


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/02/27 12:36 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

We are in entirely different worlds in our wants, needs, and observations.
Threading has been a standard feature, that works incredibly well, in e-mail clients and webmail for decades.
You're free, as are all participants here, to make your requests.  I don't think your complaints are warranted in any way.
I'm aware that this is a "beta" list, and if I complained, then I only meant my complaints to clarify the reasoning behind my RFE.

(also, I apologise for not using the hashtag #suggestion)

You may be right: we are probably in different worlds w.r.t. our needs. It appears to me that you (a) use the web interface mostly, (b) think that most people prefer to use the web interface or something that works in the same way as the web interface, and (c) believe that "threading" is the same as "grouping messages by subject and sorting them by date". This is all fine -- it's good to understand each other.

==

This is slightly off-topic, but the attached image shows the difference between threading (in what I have always thought to be the traditional or original sense) and grouping by subject line (which is called "topics" or "conversation view" in some tools). I've marked the order in which the messages arrived.

The example below the grey line shows how threading can break if the user's e-mail program does support threading, but the sender's e-mail program/service does NOT. This is why I don't make suggestions that attempt to "make threading work better".

(For some reason, I don't receive my own posts/replies to this group, so my e-mail program gets confused and shows Ken's message as a reply to Brian's first message even though it must surely be a reply to my first message.)

Samuel


moderated Re: From address re-writing

 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:48 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

- In the Accounts Prefs page, we now display one of the following messages to applicable members:

I think it should be on the Accounts Login page, just under the Email field and Change Email button. It isn't a Preference, it is a consequence of their chosen email domain. I think it deserves that much prominence.

Done.
 

I'm not sure how to avoid writing a novel there, but the lack of any explanation of motive seems wrong. Maybe a "Learn more" link to the related FAQ on the help page?

Good idea. Done.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Suggested updates to message footer

KWKloeber
 

Samuel

its a double-edged sword. 

Imagine every post so far on this topic being copied and recopy’d ad infinitum in every reply.  And what I am replying to is one sentence in the original message. 
But having no reference below can cause just as many problems (like poster #10  thinking it was a reply to that and not poster #4 i was actually replying to (excuse the preposition(s).)

it’s easy enough to do a copy > past (into the reply email) BUT it’s equally easy to do a select all > delete (or backspace) to wipe out the bottom copy (in the reply email.) 

on other forums I do find it helpful that the platform does bottom copy everything and then I wipe out all except the stuff germane to my reply.  BUT the masses are not so diligent in doing so.  In fact I think there is zero thought as to what they are doing (did anyone mention 2 or 3 in-body signature graphics, etc by a multitude of offenders?). Inconsiderate members proliferate more quickly than considerate ones. 

What I find (more?) annoying is when, in a reply, there is no place marker as to what was the original msg vs the reply (see 2c bottom copy.)  Indent quoting doesn't show up in all email apps/clients (doesn’t show up in iMail (iOS on a 6s.)

Fodder for consideration. 

Cheers
-k


2c. 
Re: RFE: Moderate messages with keywords 
From: Samuel Murray
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:41:04 EST 

On 2019/02/26 06:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote:

Probably a waste of time. When some one twigs what is going on they will use
"T H A N K S"

I'm not trying to catch out people who are trying to catch me out. I just want to catch people who are in auto-pilot mode. As soon as a member starts doing what you're talking about, he'll get one last laugh, and then the boot.

I don't fool myself into thinking that such a filter will catch all instances of flagged terms, but it may catch enough of them to make it worth while.

Samuel

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