Date   

moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Leeni
 

If this is done already - why the need to keep on discussing it.
I just know it doesn't matter to most people the how to join wording.
 
They are just interested in joining. The people in my circle don't even notice if they are joining a restricted or non restricted group.
 
They just want to join a group based upon the genre of the group.
 
I am not going to write anymore in this discussion.
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 12/14/2018 8:28:47 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group's pending notice #suggestion
 
On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 06:05 PM, magicalkingdomgroups@... wrote:
They don't care
Whether or not you've polled all of them, or whether you think your members are representative of everyone who joins a group, it's important for software to have a consistent user interface.

(Although it's clear that some people, even in this group, have not noticed the difference. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 06:05 PM, magicalkingdomgroups@... wrote:
They don't care
Whether or not you've polled all of them, or whether you think your members are representative of everyone who joins a group, it's important for software to have a consistent user interface.

(Although it's clear that some people, even in this group, have not noticed the difference. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Leeni
 

I didn't give statistics.
I am telling you from my own personal experience AND the experience of my members who have joined my groups and other groups on groups IO
 
They don't care what it says when they want to join a group.
 
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 12/14/2018 7:55:24 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group's pending notice #suggestion
 
On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:51 PM, magicalkingdomgroups@... wrote:
Most people don't even notice the change in words.
Not sure where you get those statistics.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:51 PM, magicalkingdomgroups@... wrote:
Most people don't even notice the change in words.
Not sure where you get those statistics.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Leeni
 

Most people don't even notice the change in words.
If they don't belong to a group they just look for something to click and click it.
I have been in groups for about 15 years and never noticed that there was different wording. So why is this becoming a big deal? Ilene  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: J_Catlady
Date: 12/14/2018 7:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group's pending notice #suggestion
 
On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:30 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I see no good reason that Groups.io users should be lead to form the distinction you (incorrectly) said already exists
Well, the "nonexistent" distinction has been in effect for years :-) and users are already used to it. If I see "join this group" I immediately assume the group is unrestricted.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

 


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:30 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
an "Apply" is approved immediately in the case of an unrestricted group,
That's 100% true. Because "Apply" is never shown if the group is unrestricted. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:30 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I see no good reason that Groups.io users should be lead to form the distinction you (incorrectly) said already exists
Well, the "nonexistent" distinction has been in effect for years :-) and users are already used to it. If I see "join this group" I immediately assume the group is unrestricted.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

Jim,

After deleting my Gio cookies, visiting the home pages of my
unrestricted group and my restricted group gives the very same view in
both... "+Apply For Membership In This Group."
I believe you've made a mistake somewhere.

If you have doubts, try it for yourself.
Just did. I see the expected "Join This Group" for unrestricted groups, and "Apply For Membership In This Group" for restricted ones.

Shal


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 12/15/2018 01:20 AM UTC:

In any case, if the language is different for restricted vs. unrestricted groups is different for main groups, I think it should also be correspondingly different for subgroups. Users will get used to one or the other and assume "join this group" means the group is unrestricted. But let's get first consensus on whether or not this is true - as I said, it's definitely true for the restricted and unrestricted groups I checked.

And not true for the ones I checked.

Did you delete your Gio cookies before testing? Remember, the condition being discussed also included the case of a nonmember of the main group. If you tested on your own groups with cookies active you weren't a nonmember of the main group.

And in the end it makes no difference if "Apply" is used across the board because an "Apply" is approved immediately in the case of an unrestricted group, so the impression given to the new subscriber is, in effect, the same as the result from the "Join" that you prefer.

I see no good reason that Groups.io users should be lead to form the distinction you (incorrectly) said already exists.

Jim H


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 12/15/2018 01:18 AM UTC:

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:12 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
That's not true!

Funny, because I also just checked, and the restricted groups I go to say "apply for membership in this group," whereas the unrestricted ones just say "join this group." I only checked a couple of groups. ??????

Very weird.

Indeed!

Jim H


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

Here's an unrestricted group:
https://groups.io/g/js8call

Here's a restricted one:
https://tanyackd.groups.io/g/support

See the difference?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

In any case, if the language is different for restricted vs. unrestricted groups is different for main groups, I think it should also be correspondingly different for subgroups. Users will get used to one or the other and assume "join this group" means the group is unrestricted. But let's get first consensus on whether or not this is true - as I said, it's definitely true for the restricted and unrestricted groups I checked.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 05:12 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
That's not true!
Funny, because I also just checked, and the restricted groups I go to say "apply for membership in this group," whereas the unrestricted ones just say "join this group." I only checked a couple of groups.  ??????

Very weird.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 12/15/2018 12:44 AM UTC:

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 04:40 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
membership in a subgroup isn't assured in all cases,
But in some cases it is. And when it is, it should not say "apply."

Why not? It's a case of no harm done.


Groups.io uses "join this group" to mean "join an unrestricted group," and only uses "apply for membership in this group" when the group (subgroup or otherwise) is restricted.

That's not true!

After deleting my Gio cookies, visiting the home pages of my unrestricted group and my restricted group gives the very same view in both... "+Apply For Membership In This Group." If you have doubts, try it for yourself.


In the case my group member experienced (with respect to trying to join a subgroup of another group), the subgroup is unrestricted with respect to members of the main group. As I said, I don't know if that's universal. You're saying it's not. But neither is it never the case.

Very obviously it isn't universal... for the very clear reason I gave in a portion of my response you didn't quote.

Nor is the distinction you say Gio makes between "Join" and "Apply" true. That distinction is just a case of trying to split frog's hair three ways when there's no such thing as frog's hair in the first place.

So let's not rework a process that's already working just fine... let's just implement the suggested change (if Mark agrees to do so) using the word "Apply." It covers all cases... the only difference being the "behind the scenes" difference that "application" to an unrestricted group/subgroup is "approved" immediately.

Jim H


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 04:40 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
membership in a subgroup isn't assured in all cases,
But in some cases it is. And when it is, it should not say "apply."

Groups.io uses "join this group" to mean "join an unrestricted group," and only uses "apply for membership in this group" when the group (subgroup or otherwise) is restricted.

In the case my group member experienced (with respect to trying to join a subgroup of another group), the subgroup is unrestricted with respect to members of the main group. As I said, I don't know if that's universal. You're saying it's not. But neither is it never the case.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 12/14/2018 10:15 PM UTC:

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 02:12 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I don't see a problem with having the text customized according to the setting of the primary group.
Shal, I don't know much about subgroups, but I know that in some groups (if not all) with subgroups, the main group is restricted whereas the subgroup is not. So that could get complicated. In such cases, the non-main-group member would "apply" but a main-group member should see only "join," not "apply."

"Join" in your context seems to suggest that subscribership to a subgroup is ASSURED for a member of the main group, yet we've seen a number of messages here from Owners whose main groups are limited to "general members" with a subgroup for a limited number of people on a Board of Directors... or similar. So, since membership in a subgroup isn't assured in all cases, it should say "apply" and then if it turns out that membership in the subgroup doesn't require approval then the "application" will be "approved" automatically and immediately and the applicant/joiner doesn't need to know the difference. So "Apply" works for all cases; "Join" doesn't.

Jim H


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 02:15 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
in some groups (if not all) with subgroups, the main group is restricted whereas the subgroup is not.
I meant "the main group can be restricted whereas the subgroups are not" 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 02:12 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I don't see a problem with having the text customized according to the setting of the primary group.
Shal, I don't know much about subgroups, but I know that in some groups (if not all) with subgroups, the main group is restricted whereas the subgroup is not. So that could get complicated. In such cases, the non-main-group member would "apply" but a main-group member should see only "join," not "apply." 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

J,


2. show it but say that clicking on it will result in their applying to join the main group.

I'd support this, as text below the button.


The problem with 2. is that the main group may or may not be restricted, so the word "applying" would be misleading if it's not, and the word "join" would be misleading if it is.
 
I don't see a problem with having the text customized according to the setting of the primary group.

Shal


moderated Re: non-member applying to subgroup should not get main group’s pending notice #suggestion

 

I think either

1. don't show it and give a pointer to the main group (and an explanation), or
2. show it but say that clicking on it will result in their applying to join the main group.

The problem with 2. is that the main group may or may not be restricted, so the word "applying" would be misleading if it's not, and the word "join" would be misleading if it is. So I think not showing it at all is slightly better in the sense of being more clear.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu