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moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 04:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
People could then easily voice their concerns and complaints with a particular group to the group owners without having to suffer, or worrying about suffering, negative consequences.
If this were to be implemented just wait until you get your first crank.   If you can't or won't put your name to your concerns or complaints for an online group then they're not that essential.  And I can say this with decades of experience with these venues.

But, again, it comes back to, "Doesn't matter to me if it's an option," as it's one I would never, ever exercise from either side of the equation, so if it's felt this idea has merit then have at it!  I do think that one must consider what this might mean when one gets a crank, and I've now made that cautionary statement.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 01:36 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I come back to supporting the idea of a suggestions e-mail address that would be "off-beta" and go straight to Mark, but where he would obviously know from whom the suggestion originated.
Brian, I totally agree with this.

Also, not every feature change is, will be, or should be subject to review by the membership at large.  You cannot please all of the people all of the time, and if Mark elects to make a change one must remember that Groups.io is "his product."
And with this.
We seem to be on the same page now.

As for the "anonymous suggestion box' idea, that's something I was thinking about proposing on a per-group basis - not for groups.io product suggestions (as Samuel proposed). People could then easily voice their concerns and complaints with a particular group to the group owners without having to suffer, or worrying about suffering, negative consequences.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Personally, I see no point in a truly anonymous suggestion box, as Mark has solicited and continues to solicit suggestions from the membership at large.  If one is making a suggestion to him there's no reason he shouldn't know who made it if he wished to explore it further with the person making the suggestion.

I come back to supporting the idea of a suggestions e-mail address that would be "off-beta" and go straight to Mark, but where he would obviously know from whom the suggestion originated.

This seems, in the final analysis, to be what he wants anyway based upon his post, Feature bloat and what should and should not be added.
If no discussion of suggestions by others is desired, and that does appear to be what is wanted, having same being made on an open forum makes little sense to begin with.  Another option, were suggestions to still be made on the beta group, would be instant moderation on any topic using the #suggestion family of hashtags (and I would include a number of others that exist as being just another term for suggestion).

Also, not every feature change is, will be, or should be subject to review by the membership at large.  You cannot please all of the people all of the time, and if Mark elects to make a change one must remember that Groups.io is "his product."  I have to deal with product changes that I don't like with virtually any cyber-product I've ever used, and Groups.io has not been any different in that regard.  And some of the things I don't like others adore.  You just can't please all of the people all of the time, and trying to do so is a recipe for disaster.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

Thanks, Dano.
And also, I agree about "Likes." But since they're still with us, I'll "Like" that. :-)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:36 PM, Samuel Murray wrote:
Routing the suggestion to just one small group of people who may have better things to do,
We may not be understanding each other. That's not what I proposed.

The developers are subscribed to the beta group,
The developers? You mean Mark? :-)

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

I'm tired of all this noise. The biggest logical fallacy put forth here is that beta is a 'democracy'. Groups are not democracies, and certainly when the developer is involved they are not. Groups are at best benevolent dictatorships, because they have an owner who is in charge of them. And trying to speak for the product developer, who owns and manages all of this, or tell other people what is right or not right could be a big mistake.

J offered a very reasonable request. I can see the value in the idea. It was simple and straightforward. =That idea is now Mark's, to do with as he deems worthy.= Shal also added that this discussion is beyond what Mark has asked for here on beta, and he is correct. Beyond that I have read nothing of significant substance - just puffery. In my opinion, this whole discussion should move to GMF.

I also think this thread is a good argument against 'likes'. It's just crows squawking at each other instead of offering anything useful.

Since the 'big migration' there seems to be so many noisy people everywhere who want to sound so wise, but wind up sounding more like biblical 'clanging gongs'.

Dano

----- Original Message -----

I hope that Mark puts this hapless thread out of its misery, and soon.
HINT:

There wouldn't BE a THREAD if folks didn't continually and continuously respond with snippits and barbs and trying to be Marks Personal Beta Assistant (or would that be Personal Trainer?)

Let a suggestion stand and then I'm fairly certain that Mark has the mental capacity to understand and pass judgment on it.


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 09:47 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:

I think that an Anonymous suggestion box would increase Mark's burden; he would be the only one who could promote the suggestion initially to review.
Please read my suggestion carefully.

My suggestion is that suggestions made through the suggestion box be posted straight to the beta list, so it would not affect the developers' burden in any way.

Samuel


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

Bob, this sounds really good to me, modulo details that would need to be worked out. I like the general scheme.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Where’s that damn moderator?

 

Hi all,

It’s spring break here and the kids are out of school. So I’m not in front of the computer a lot this week. I will respond to everything hopefully later tonight.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

I think that an Anonymous suggestion box would increase Mark's burden; he would be the only one who could promote the suggestion initially to review.
What I think is a better system for Mark but would likely not fly with this group is a more formal change request system,.
You enter your change request into a form, including detail and justification and forward it (to Mark via the Submit button)
Mark weighs it for overall value to his venture (he does own this domain.)
If he decides that it fits into his overall plan and would be a general improvement for groups.io, he posts it to the "shooting range" (Beta group) 
Beta group does what it does and Mark at some point, halts conversation (freezes the topic) and makes a final judgement based on his analysis of the suggestion and the conversation which he posts to the Beta Group ( and the initiator)
He can reject it at any time in the process, from right after submission all the way until just prior to integration into the system.

I'm going on break for a bit now so have at it

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:31 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted.
Absolutely correct and that is exactly what I said. I said they own the unexpressed idea, the idea while it's still in their heads. They are not obligated to post it at all. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 09:24 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

In my version, the groups.io box is routed to Mark or a surrogate
(not to a group) and is not anonymous, leaving Mark with the ability
to ask questions about the proposed suggestions...
Routing the suggestion to just one small group of people who may have better things to do, would defeat the purpose of my proposal, which is to save the developers from having to "ask questions" to suggestors individually.

The developers are subscribed to the beta group, and they are smart enough to set filters on their mail clients to flag initial posts labelled #anonymous... if they really believe that such suggestions are likely to be of higher value than suggestions made by people who took the effort to join the beta group and offer their suggestions up for peer scrutiny.

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:57 PM UTC:
 
The user owns their idea until they give it to Mark, per the TOU, as I've said several times.

As long as we're talking about the TOS, let's look at the actual wording.

When it comes to ownership of posted content as expressed in the TOS, "you own all right, title and interest in and to your User Content..." That means no one else can claim your posted content - your intellectual property - as their own. It says nothing that prevents discussion of your ideas, including modification of them.

As far as the user owning their ideas until "they give it to Mark," I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted. I say that because the TOS says, "You acknowledge and agree that any QUESTIONS, COMMENTS, SUGGESTIONS, IDEAS, FEEDBACK OR OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE SERVICE (SUBMISSIONS), [ emphasis mine] provided by you to Groups.io are non-confidential and Groups.io will be entitled to the unrestricted use and dissemination of these Submissions for any purpose, commercial or otherwise, without acknowledgment or compensation to you."


And the point is that they may decide not to provide it at all to groups.io if they have to do it in this venue.

That's not necessarily a bad thing at all. In the case of some ideas it's probably the very best decision that could be made.

Jim H


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

ps I’m not “Mrs” Catlady. :-)

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:


Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

I was going to propose something like this on an individual group basis, in addition to an overall groups.io suggestion box. In my version, the groups.io box is routed to Mark or a surrogate (not to a group) and is not anonymous, leaving Mark with the ability to ask questions about the proposed suggestions; whereas the individual group suggestion boxes would be anonymous, one-shot messages touted to the group owner.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:


Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

KWKloeber
 


I hope that Mark puts this hapless thread out of its misery, and soon.
HINT:

There wouldn't BE a THREAD if folks didn't continually and continuously respond with snippits and barbs and trying to be Marks Personal Beta Assistant (or would that be Personal Trainer?) 

Let a suggestion stand and then I'm fairly certain that Mark has the mental capacity to understand and pass judgment on it.

If there's something to add to, or clarify, or improve, or is germane generally/genuinely positive to the suggestion, make it, but stop the back and forth, which is BETA BLOAT in itself.  I love when someone says "I'm done" (until of course, they aren't done.) If it's a really dumb (to be defined) suggestion, I don't believe that Mark needs a personal assistant to expain that to him.
(now I'm done LOL)


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

It’s not a “logical fallacy.” He’s said not to argue about the value of a proposed feature. The suggestion box is a proposed feature.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Jim Higgins <HigginsJ@sc.rr.com> wrote:

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:13 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.
Some users may decide not to give suggestions at all if they can't sometimes do it in a simple way. I'm sure Mark would like to get as many suggestions as possible; or so he has said.

Mark has yet to be heard from on the suggestion of the "suggestion box" you've requested so argument on your part by reference to Mark is a logical fallacy involving misuse of authority. On top of that, there is nothing preventing "beta" from passing as many suggestions to Mark as he would ever be able to read let alone implement. The "suggestion box" you want won't be just another route for passing suggestions to Mark; it's very clearly, based on your own earlier comments, intended to pass along suggestions while hiding them from comment by your peers. When it comes to making suggestions "in a simple way," I guess stifling all other opinions does make it easier to make suggestions... but it also makes it easier for poorly thought out ideas to make it thru to Mark without accompanying comments that point out serious flaws in the original idea or that suggest valuable improvements on the original idea... improvement in this case being to scrap the original idea completely.


You're making a lot of assumptions here about "clearly intended to hide." Yes, I want to hide trivial suggestions that don't affect anyone and that I don't want to get dragged into unnecessary discussions about.

But since we'd never see those suggestions, who but you (and other proposers using that route) determines that they don't affect anyone else?


Other users may not want to join a group like beta.

Other users already belong to a group of some sort, so joining a group obviously isn't a huge problem for them. It only becomes a problem if they make it one by not putting comments made in beta into proper perspective. It could also become extremely annoying and time consuming if they saw every comment as something that needed to be responded to and crushed.


This entire conversation is against Mark's explicit exhortation not to criticize suggestions here. If that can't be followed, I'd say that a suggestion box becomes a necessity.

Circular logic. Because your idea seeks to disenfranchise the opinion of others here it is drawing opposition and because of that opposition the need for the "suggestion box" you suggest is proven? Nonsense! While pure criticism with no intent to seek improvement is wrong, so is the desire to stifle any discussion at all.

Jim H



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

The user owns their idea until they give it to Mark, per the TOU, as I’ve said several times. And the point is that they may decide not to provide it at all to groups.io if they have to do it in this venue.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:

On 2019/04/03 07:18 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:15 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Perhaps... but who is to say that others can't discuss it?
The suggestion belongs to the user.
What an odd thing to say.

The proposer does not "own" his suggestion, even though he may have
spent a lot of time crafting it carefully.

Remember, even if he makes his suggestion privately to the developers,
the developers are likely to discuss it and make it public if they are
to consider it, so any privacy afforded by an anonymous suggestion
feature is very temporary.

I'm tired, very very tired, of this. I wish that I had made this suggestion via a suggestion box.
What you should have done, is make the suggestion, and then not read the
thread for a day or two to allow things to simmer, and then optionally
return to it to clarify one or two things.

Presumably the developers evaluate suggestions not based on how much
support it got from the group or how few objections were raised against
it, but on its own merit.

You don't have to "defend" your suggestion. But if you do, then you
open yourself to discussion.

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:13 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.
Some users may decide not to give suggestions at all if they can't sometimes do it in a simple way. I'm sure Mark would like to get as many suggestions as possible; or so he has said.

Mark has yet to be heard from on the suggestion of the "suggestion box" you've requested so argument on your part by reference to Mark is a logical fallacy involving misuse of authority. On top of that, there is nothing preventing "beta" from passing as many suggestions to Mark as he would ever be able to read let alone implement. The "suggestion box" you want won't be just another route for passing suggestions to Mark; it's very clearly, based on your own earlier comments, intended to pass along suggestions while hiding them from comment by your peers. When it comes to making suggestions "in a simple way," I guess stifling all other opinions does make it easier to make suggestions... but it also makes it easier for poorly thought out ideas to make it thru to Mark without accompanying comments that point out serious flaws in the original idea or that suggest valuable improvements on the original idea... improvement in this case being to scrap the original idea completely.


You're making a lot of assumptions here about "clearly intended to hide." Yes, I want to hide trivial suggestions that don't affect anyone and that I don't want to get dragged into unnecessary discussions about.

But since we'd never see those suggestions, who but you (and other proposers using that route) determines that they don't affect anyone else?


Other users may not want to join a group like beta.

Other users already belong to a group of some sort, so joining a group obviously isn't a huge problem for them. It only becomes a problem if they make it one by not putting comments made in beta into proper perspective. It could also become extremely annoying and time consuming if they saw every comment as something that needed to be responded to and crushed.


This entire conversation is against Mark's explicit exhortation not to criticize suggestions here. If that can't be followed, I'd say that a suggestion box becomes a necessity.

Circular logic. Because your idea seeks to disenfranchise the opinion of others here it is drawing opposition and because of that opposition the need for the "suggestion box" you suggest is proven? Nonsense! While pure criticism with no intent to seek improvement is wrong, so is the desire to stifle any discussion at all.

Jim H

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