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moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 11:03 AM, KWKloeber wrote:
unsure how to succinct it into a guideline
"If you make a suggestion, please motivate the suggestion: include the reason why it would be useful and/or the problem it solves; any use cases you know exist, or that may exist; and current workarounds you are aware of and why you think they are insufficient or could stand improvement."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

KWKloeber
 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 11:09 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
You can just do [xyz inconvenient workaround].
Toward cutting off such replies before they occur, it might be helpful if the original #suggester was as complete as humanly possible in the original po,t  i.e., *I realize we can work around this by... but the downside is....* or whatever.  There's no way to know if the #suggester is even aware there's a workaround, so oftentimes we ass/u/me s/he doesn't know. -- #suggesters,  put yourself in your recipients' shoes.
  
It may also be helpful to succinctly explain why a #suggestion is made.  Just posting *I #suggest xyz* gives MF no clue as to the utility of doing that, or what the problem is leaving it where is it.  *Here's why #suggestion would be better ....* gives everyone involved more information.
We might think we shouldn't need to explain our "whys and wherefores" but in the long game it can make life easier.  We aren't making suggestions to only MF (otherwise this group isn't needed -- it could be via email,) we're doing it for discussion.  i.e., if we don't need *some point* discussed then it's critical to provide enough information to demonstrate that *the point* doesn't NEED to be discussed - i.e., that the #suggester has already considered it.

just 0.02, unsure how to succinct it into a guideline.


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

Ok, so one more message from me in this topic, given Mark's request:

Mark, I like your previously mentioned exhortations not to shoot down ideas without an affirmative reason that they are bad or might actually hurt something or be bad for the product. What gets my goat are messages that say, "Why do we really need this? You can just do [xyz inconvenient workaround]." There are almost always workarounds. Heck, there's a workaround to groups.io! Why do we need it? Just create your own email list!

The answer to those kinds of comments is always the same: "Yes, there's a workaround, but we are just trying to make things better, make mods' and members' lives easier than having to do the workaround, and the suggestion doesn't hurt anything." It's like rinse-and-repeat.

I think arguments against a suggestion are fine if they describe why they could actually have a negative effect.

And I have one more pet-peeve subservient to this: "I'm not arguing against this" followed by the above ("but we don't really need it" yada yada).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

Hi All,

I think augmenting the group guidelines is a good idea, and I'd appreciate help with that. What I want is beta to be an inclusive, welcoming group where people can propose new ideas without fear of being attacked or shot down. To quote noted philosopher Bill S. Preston, Esquire, "be excellent to each other."

Thanks,
Mark
(who is on vacation until Tuesday)


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

KWKloeber
 

Bruce Bowman wrote:
I actually tried to search for it but came up empty.

Hey Bruce

If you can't define it, you can't enforce it.  If you can't measure it, you cant fix it.

Here is a prior msg to Mark (just copied verbatim so forgive my not fine-tuning it) when we had been discussing the "new" beta group back in Jan 2020.  Could we use this as a jumping-off point for interested-others to add to and suggest guidelines to Mark he could fine tune to whatever will help him the most?

Will you be publishing guidelines - specifically referring to what is most helpful to you and want to see added (or refrained from) re: discussion of a #suggestion.  Some thoughts if you decide to go that route:

- "I agree" and "me too" be forever banned (unless Beta is intended to be a popularity poll.)  "LIKE" works.

- "No one will use that" -  no one has enough foresight to definitively predict what the average user (or non-average) will or will -

- "That would cause a mess" or "cause more confusion than now" or "can't be implemented"  or ..... similar type replies.  

- For the most part "opinions" have little value and add to unnecessary chaff on Beta.  Everyone has one and every one (just as everyone) is as valid as another.

- "Fact-based" -  discussions/additions/clarifications that are fact-based and add to understanding or clarification (or forbid improvement) of someone else's suggestion, not leading to needing to defend one's opinions (rather than presenting or clarifying facts,) which adds tons of chaff. 

....more..?    Thx


moderated Re: "member message" urgently needs logging #suggestion #fixed

 

This is a request for an exception to the inclusion of text in the logging of member messages: could Member Notices be exempting from the logging of the text? I just sent the group guidelines to a member, resulting in a multi-page log entry consisting of the entire text of our (long) group guidelines. I'm suggesting that in the case of sending a canned Member Notice, the log entry just specity that the specified notice was sent.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site this week:

May 26, 2021:

  • CHANGE: The long format for dates for people and groups that have a preference of MM/DD/YYYY is now Monday, January 2, 2006. For all others, it continues to be Monday, 2 January 2006.
  • INTERNAL: Cleaned up some technical debt around #cal-reminder and #cal-notice message generation. As a side effect, #cal-reminder messages now include ICS attachments, like #cal-invite notices.
  • CHANGE: For message notifications, use the sender's name or email address as the title when possible, instead of just "New message". Discussion

May 25, 2021:

  • CHANGE: Moderators and owners can now reply to a locked topic. Discussion
  • APP: Added support for Android back buttons, and on iOS swiping right now goes back one page.
  • BUGFIX: Fixed apostrophe conversions in notification subjects and bodies. Discussion
  • BUGFIX: Better parsing of Qmail bounce messages. Discussion
  • CHANGE: Work on being able to go back to search results from the breadcrumb line, for viewing members and messages.

May 24, 2021:

  • BUGFIX: Pagination didn't work on the Sent Invitations page on mobile or the app. Discussion
  • BUGFIX: Due to a previous change to support unread message tracking in the app, sometimes digests would not be generated when they should have been. No digest messages were lost, some were just delayed. Discussion

Take care everyone.

Mark


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

Here's one suggested one, which Mark (for obvious reasons;) sometimes gently reminds me offlist about: Try to consolidate your messages about one topic rather than send multiple messages. I fervently hope this will be my only message in this topic. I've so far tried to get by on Likes.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Bruce Bowman
 

If Group Guidelines do not exist for this purpose, what purpose do they serve?

It just seems unreasonable to ask people to adhere to expectations that have been expressed nowhere but in some long-forgotten email. I actually tried to search for it but came up empty.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

KWKloeber
 

Bruce

This would be a helpful reminder.  Casting adide one of my long-ago suggested rules (a #Suggestion is not an open microphone to begin a popularity poll nor for piling on "Me toos",) "I agree" (darn, that's hard to avoid.)
How about we generate a list and have MF bless it (that is, in the positive sense -- not in the south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-Line meaning)?

-ken


moderated Re: Show display name in push notifications for new messages #suggestion

Judy F.
 

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 09:52 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
Hi Mark,

rather than just display 'New message' on push notifications for browsers and the app, can we show the Display Name of the user instead?  This would be more inline with notifications from email clients such as Outlook.






I really notice the lack of a display name when using the App and I get multiple notifications about messages on an active topic and they all look the same.  I  may be more interested in a response from one person than another and it's not possible to determine who has responded at the moment.

Regards
Andy


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/26/2021 11:46, Duane wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with leaving it informally in Mark's judgement with occasional remarks.
As a group, most of us probably are.  Having the Guidelines (with a bit of clarification on some points) posted would be considerate of the new members joining and/or those that didn't see (or remember) his previous comments.

Duane

I'm okay with that. No so much a fan of the monthly drumbeat.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Duane
 

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with leaving it informally in Mark's judgement with occasional remarks.
As a group, most of us probably are.  Having the Guidelines (with a bit of clarification on some points) posted would be considerate of the new members joining and/or those that didn't see (or remember) his previous comments.

Duane


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Glenn Glazer
 

I'm perfectly fine with leaving it informally in Mark's judgement with occasional remarks.

Best,

Glenn

On 05/26/2021 09:01, Bruce Bowman wrote:
In the interest of being more proactive, may I suggest:
  • Expected behavior for posting to the beta group be included in its guidelines
  • These guidelines be posted to the group once a month.
Thanks,
Bruce


--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Bruce Bowman
 

In the interest of being more proactive, may I suggest:
  • Expected behavior for posting to the beta group be included in its guidelines
  • These guidelines be posted to the group once a month.
Thanks,
Bruce


moderated Show display name in push notifications for new messages #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

rather than just display 'New message' on push notifications for browsers and the app, can we show the Display Name of the user instead?  This would be more inline with notifications from email clients such as Outlook.






I really notice the lack of a display name when using the App and I get multiple notifications about messages on an active topic and they all look the same.  I  may be more interested in a response from one person than another and it's not possible to determine who has responded at the moment.

Regards
Andy


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

Hi All,

Well, 40+ messages on this topic, plus a few more in moderation that I have not approved, certainly is ... something. I'd like to remind everyone to try to keep things positive here. For feature requests, please try to include as much detail as possible. For responses to those feature requests, I'd appreciate:

  • Helpful responses pointing out existing features that already do what's requested
  • Suggestions for improvements to the original feature request

What I'm not interested in is "I wouldn't use this" or "I don't see how that'd be useful" or "meh" type responses. Those don't help anyone. I'm not saying there can't or shouldn't be disagreement here; please keep it focused on improving feature suggestions, and not just shooting down ideas. If there is another way to accomplish what the proposed feature is asking for, it's fine to point that out, if you believe the original poster doesn't know that. But always assume good intentions here; everyone just wants to make the service better.

I'm not going to force some new behavior on all groups willy nilly. Except, well, I've got this great new feature that will be inserting the <blink> tag in all emails going forward. You're all going to love it! :-)

As for this particular feature, I'll be adding a new Locked Topic member notice (this is not live yet). You can have multiple of these notices, with one active. The active one would be used if you lock a topic from the Topics page. There will be a dropdown listing all of them if you go to the Topic Properties page and lock the topic that way. I haven't figured out how to handle automatic locking of topics yet. Hopefully this will go up later this week.

Finally, I've locked this topic. And, as you can see with the existence of this message, I've added the ability for moderators/owners to reply to messages in locked topics. This is now live.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Unknown bounce issue #bug

Alexis
 

Thanks for the info Derek and now Mark sorted out the full bounce reason the problem became apparent. Turns out I had a max length limit of an incoming email in my script, and that limit was being exceeded by this one email,

But you have come up with some very good points there and I thank you for those.

Alexis

On 25/05/2021 02:37, Derek Milliner wrote:
Alexis,
I made a broad and possibly invalid assumption that your incoming mail is handled by your own mail server (e.g. postfix, sendmail etc.) and that how your script is called by the mail server. If this is not the case then my references to the SMTP dialogue don't apply. If it is your own mail server, then the key debug info will be in the mail server logs.
If you haven't already done so I'd add a debug line in your script that simply writes to a local file when it's called just in case there's something in the message which also causes the copy to you to fail. Belt 'n' braces.
If the message isn't even getting as far as calling your script and it's not your own mail server then you'd need to work with the provider to get log details on what's happening with that specific source. It may be of course that they changed something about 6 months ago. Mark may be able to use the info you've provided to shed a little more light from the GIO end.


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

"Why do we need this? What we have is good enough."
These kinds of messages are easily interpretable as arguments against something. My apologies if the intention was otherwise.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Lynne
 

"It's not necessary to understand why. If something gets suggested here, Mark has stated many times not to argue against it. It's his decision....  So nothing to stress out abouit or argue against. "

I wasn't  arguing at all, for or against.  As stated, I was just trying to understand why the proposal was a better option than what exists.  Thanks to those who took the time to explain.

Lynne

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