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moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 08:59 AM, I wrote:
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!
Off - line activities completed (for now!) I have had a more detailed look and now think I have seen the anomalous Activity log entries mentioned; they only seem to arise for a very small number of bouncing members, manifesting as a greater number of recorded bounces than group traffic can account for.

As it happens I do not use the Activity log entries as part of the weeding process, relying on the member's activity and email delivery records as the guiding factors in whether or not to delete them from the group.

Also (FWIW) I think I have seen these anomalous Activity log entries prior to the recent bugfix.

Chris


moderated Re: Bounce handler adds "is bouncing" log entry for bounce from another group, when member already blue B in the group #bug

 

In other words, the subject of this bug should be changed to "Bounce handler adds 'is bouncing' log entry when member already blue B in the group" 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Site updates #changelog

Duane
 

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 11:52 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
  • INTERNAL: Work on converting to elasticsearch 7.
  • INTERNAL: Optimizations to the change data system that ingests data into the elasticsearch cluster. We were replaying a lot of old LSNs after each restart that we didn't need to.
  • SYSADMIN: Added an additional 6 nodes to the search cluster because searches were taking too long.
There seems to be a large lag in updating the number in the Message History chart, as well as being able to find previously posted messages within at least some groups.  Could these be related?

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: Bounce handler adds "is bouncing" log entry for bounce from another group, when member already blue B in the group #bug

 

After reconnecting with the 554 bug topic and John's original and subsequent messages, I see that the multiple log entries were the result of bounces of the bounce probes themselves, not bounces from other groups. So I'm amending this bug to say that I don't think "is bouncing" log entries should be created in a group once the member is already marked as blue "B" in the group. The email delivery history should stay complete, but there is no reason to log "is bouncing" once that has already occurred. I think the subsequent log entries should either be eliminated (they are confusing/misleading) or changed to read something along the lines of "bounced a message." The current entry (when subsequent to an already existing entry "is bouncing") sounds as if the member's status has changed, when it hasn't.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

John,

You are right. There's one 554 for the group guidelines, and three for bounce probes. So the log entries are not, as I formerly suspected, coming from other groups. They are coming from the bounce probes themselves.

So although my bug report still stands in that I don't think separate log entries "is bouncing" should be created once the member is already blue "B," the underlying reason I guessed for the multiples (group guidelines from multiple groups) is incorrect. I am seeing more or less what you are seeing in the email delivery history, except that there are more bounce probes in my member's case, probably because I sent one by hand.

I'll go into my bug report thread and correct this.

Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 08:27 AM, John Pearce wrote:
Are these from Yahoo
Yes
does is say 554.30 This mailbox is disabled
Yes

So any bounces previous to the fix did not show up in the bouncing member list as the frequency of once a month was not enough to trigger bounce processing.
Exactly, and that's why this is showing up only now. The multiples are probably because it was the first of the month and group guidelines are sent out on that date, mostly as special notices, and she is a special-notice member in my group (and probably the others). 

Then the frequency is reset because there were not enough bounces within a few days.  So they would never have gotten the blue "B" in the first place.  That is the change, that they show up with a blue B now and are placed in actual bounce status

Yes. I am intimately familiar with the bounce handler. All of that is correct, and that's why only now does the member show up (finally) as bouncing, despite month upon month of these bounces. Too much time in between.

I've sent a bug report, which you may have already seen. I think the bug, finally recognized only now because of the "perfect storm" of 554 bug fix and monthly group guidelines, is that the bounce handler should not create a new log entry in a group "is bouncing" if the member is already marked as bouncing there.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

John Pearce
 

Are these from Yahoo and does is say 554.30 This mailbox is disabled?  Remember this bounce code from yahoo indicates that the yahoo account has not been used for at least 1 year.  So any bounces previous to the fix did not show up in the bouncing member list as the frequency of once a month was not enough to trigger bounce processing.  Then the frequency is reset because there were not enough bounces within a few days.  So they would never have gotten the blue "B" in the first place.  That is the change, that they show up with a blue B now and are placed in actual bounce status where before they did not.  You should give us some cut and pastes so we can see what you are seeing.  Here is what I get for a member.  Note on the 1st there are two.  One for the message and one for the bounce probe.  The member activity log and the group activity log both match what you see below.


Feb 4 Bounce probe mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4045.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Feb 1 Bounce probe mta6.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4153.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Feb 1 [maganak] Group Guidelines mta7.am0.yahoodns.net: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry, your message to xyz@... cannot be delivered. This mailbox is disabled (554.30). - mta4277.mail.bf1.yahoo.com


moderated Re: Bounce handler adds "is bouncing" log entry for bounce from another group, when member already blue B in the group #bug

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 07:44 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would guess the latter,
typo, I meant "the former" - but these are guesses upon guesses.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Bounce handler adds "is bouncing" log entry for bounce from another group, when member already blue B in the group #bug

 

After the 554 hard-bounce bug fix, I noticed four consecutive group-activity log entries on the same day (Feb 1) for the same member, with no intervening unbounces for that member. The member's email delivery history showed monthly bounces for the group guidelines, which is sent as a special notice, and she is a special-notice member. Three of the entries were on Feb 1 and the fourth was on Feb 4.

I believe (but am guessing and not 100% sure) that one of the log entries on Feb 1 was from a bounce of my group's guidelines, that the other two entries on Feb 1 were from bounces of group guidelines two other groups she is subscribed to with special-notice-only, and that the bounce on Feb 4 was a bounce of either a special-notice that went out from a fourth group she's in and is subscribed to via special notice, or a bounce of a regular message from a fourth group she's in and subscribed to via individual message. (I would guess the latter, since she only appeared as bouncing at all after the 554 fix.)

If my guesses are correct, the solution is a simple "if" statement that conditions sending of an "xyz is bouncing" log entry to any particular group only if the member is not already categorized as bouncing in that group.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Edit Photo #bug

Duane
 

While helping someone troubleshoot a problem with their group, I added a photo to an existing album (set to Group Access) using my member account.  When I went to edit the photo, it shows the Owner drop down list.  For testing, I changed it to someone else and Updated, then couldn't get ownership back.  The owner had to fix it.  As a further test, I created a Personal Access album and the same thing happens, the Owner list is there.  I thought the Owner box/list was only supposed to be visible to group owner/mods.

As a side effect, some of the email addresses were visible since those people never set a Display Name.

Duane


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

The group activity log. That’s where bouncing accounts are logged, even when they’ve bounced a messsge from another group. I’m thinking this bounce-handler bug is showing up now for the first time only because the 554 bug was fixed, which caused one-time special-notice guideline bounced messages to cause accounts to be marked blue B, which causes log entries for every group they’re in to be logged in every other group they’re in. Because all auto-sent guidelines are sent on the 1st of the month, you would now (for the first time, because of the fixed bug) see multiple log entries for a single member on the same day. If this is what happened, the bounce handler bug existed before but was only made manifest since the 554 bug was fixed. If all of this is correct, the bug is thst it creates a log entry that a member is bouncing when the member already has a blue B in the group.


On Feb 5, 2020, at 12:59 AM, Chris Jones via Groups.Io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 06:59 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!

In the meantime when you say "logged" do you mean in Activity or in the individual member's Email Delivery History?

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 06:59 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
I'm not currently aware of any "anomalies" but I'll have a closer look later; for the moment other off - line activities have to take precedence!

In the meantime when you say "logged" do you mean in Activity or in the individual member's Email Delivery History?

Chris


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

I wonder now whether the multiple log entries originated from other groups in which the member is *also* bouncing. The guidelines notice goes out on the 1st in every group every member is in. The system logs "x is bouncing" for every message in every group the member is in, according to what I remember.  So it makes sense that if the member is in four groups, four messages bounced on the same day - one for each group's guidelines message (even though only one was from mine). Maybe the guidelines go out at different times of day depending on the time zone? I'm just guessing here.

If this is the issue, I would change the bounce handler so that if the member is already bouncing (i.e., blue B), no further log entries would be triggered for that member (unless, of course, they unbounce in between).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

Actually I just checked and it's 554.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

Chris noted the following:
""Our" Monthly Message goes out as a Special Notice on the 1st of every month and the outcome was that about 72 new bouncers have been listed. I haven't checked every one but those I have checked were all on Special Notice deliveries and their recorded bounces were all listed... one per month."

So the new behavior in both his group and mine seem related to that bug fix. My group member is also special-notice, and she was noted as bouncing for the first time on only on Feb 1 of this year, despite her most recent successful delivery showing as April of last year. So the bug fix did finally note her as bouncing. And there was just once bounce. It's the log entries that seem off.

I wonder, Chris, whether you also have some duplicate log entries as well, like my group does for the one bouncing special-notice member.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 10:10 PM, Duane wrote:
I'd bet that none of them were 554 codes which is the one (#bug) described in this topic.  My guess is that the first couple of bounces were either indeterminate hard bounces or soft bounces.
Possibly. But coincidentally, (a) this has never happened in my group before; (b) the logging behavior occurred immediately after the bug fix; (c) the member is on special notices only; and (d) here was only one special notice sent in my group, and it was the guidelines notice sent on Feb 1. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

Duane
 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 07:05 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Not so sure about this "fix." In my group there were no less than FOUR "xyz is bouncing via system" log entries on Feb 1 for the same member
I'd bet that none of them were 554 codes which is the one (#bug) described in this topic.  My guess is that the first couple of bounces were either indeterminate hard bounces or soft bounces.  That triggered the bounce handling system which has decided to send bounce probes.  The one on Feb 4 also bounced.

As noted on the Help page, some codes may not be well defined.  GIO treats them as soft bounces to do the least damage, thus multiple entries in the Activity log.  I'd only see them there by accident since I check Bouncing in the Email Delivery History of the Member.

Duane


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

It's the 4 log entries: Feb 1 at 5:30 a.m., 10:09 a.m., and 2:55 p.m., and today at 3:45 p.m. I'm expecting more tomorrow. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

Mark Fletcher
 

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 5:05 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Not so sure about this "fix." In my group there were no less than FOUR "xyz is bouncing via system" log entries on Feb 1 for the same member, who is subscribed via special notices, and just for good measure, there was another one this afternoon;).

Not sure I understand. Did you not expect the person to be bouncing? Or was it the fact that there were 4 bouncing log entries?

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: A 554 Bounce code not recognized as bouncing on first occurrence #bug #fixed

 

Correction: there were four in total for this member, including the one today. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu