Date   

moderated Graphics Artist needed #misc

 

Hi All,

I am in need of some simple graphics work done. Yes, that includes fixing the favicon, but also includes creating a new splash screen for the app. Not a lot of work, and not very complicated, but probably ongoing. Please contact me off-list if you're interested/have the relevant skills, and let me know your rate.

Thanks!
Mark


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

Mark Murphy
 

Shal, thank you clarifying the consistency question is about "when" I get notified -- I agree.

Sorry, I couldn't resist this:


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

 

Mark,

Why do I have to care or think about all the various reasons why I
as an owner/moderator am sent/not sent apply or confirmation message?
You don't have to care about why. Or when. You can just handle them as needed.

My use case (which I believe is common): As an owner/moderator, I want
to get a notification when someone applies to join my group and/or
confirms.
You will, if you've opted to. The consistency question has to do with "when".

I think the proper way to look at the system behavior is that the +subscribe email user hasn't actually requested to join your group until they respond to the confirmation request from Groups.io.

That point of view is based on the fact that Groups.io ignores any unconfirmed email commands, as if they never happened (except +help and +owner, as mentioned previously). Not only do the group managers not get a notice of a pending member until then, but also the address isn't added to the Pending Members list, nor is the command even logged in the group's Activity log*.

To paraphrase the social media meme, where concerns the email commands like +subscribe: "confirm or it didn't happen".

I'd like to be able to turn these notices off or on at the group
level.
Not sure what you mean by "at the group level".

In each group you own or moderate, you can choose if and how you'll be notified by selecting the desired option for "Pending Members", in the Moderator Notifications panel of your Subscription page in that group.

Shal
*I happen to be sympathetic to the notion that failing to even log it may be a problem, notwithstanding the possibility of a spambot flooding the groups's Activity log.


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 


>>> "I believe that was implemented so that others couldn't submit subscription requests using your email address."
>>> That makes sense for stand-alone groups.

It does for subgroups as well, for the same reason; due to the inherent insecurity of email it would be easy for someone, anyone for that matter, to "subscribe" another member to the subgroup without them knowing or asking for it; obviously they would have to know group & member specifics, but think about it for a minute, it would be akin to anyone being able to subgroup-DirectAdd someone.  If I knew your group specifics and knew you were a member and your address, nothing then could stop me from spoofing your address and subscribe you through email to all the subgroups, and you wouldn't have a clue, for a while anyway until you got the welcome notices.  The chance of this happening or the reason why it would doesn't matter, it could be a prank or something serious/nefarious, without that confirmation email there is a wide-open hole ready to be exploited.

Email is insecure, being online requires the account to be logged in hence more secure therefore we can relax a bit.

If your objective is to prevent the confirmation email, and you're sending out main-group messages with subscribe links to the subgroups, how about having the links to their home pages instead, and tell folks to click on Join?  Yes I know, it still doesn't address email-only preferred users, they still would have to do the extra step.  But for the rest, work-wise it's easier and faster to click once to go to the group home then click Join and be done, and then they are on the subgroup's pages and can start exploring right away. 

Or alternatively, if the subgroups are announcement groups, you could have a single link to the main group's "Subgroups" link in your message, where all the available subgroups are presented and the members can then join the ones they want to.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 

This further shows the need for cleaning up the whole confirmation process, especially in regards to precautions taken due to possible spammers and bots (as I think is implied as the reason here).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

 

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 09:48 AM, Mark Murphy wrote:
Are web subscribe requests less likely to come from spammers and bots?
Yes, that has been known to be the case. But so what? The issue of the confusion-causing inconsistency remains.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

Mark Murphy
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 05:54 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I believe it is intentional, because hobgoblins and spambots. That is, all email commands (except +help and +owner) require confirmation before they do anything, +subscribe follows the majority.
https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/additional-information/standard-group-email-addresses

The intent is to keep the group managers (and unrestricted groups) from being flooded by spambot-generated +subscribe requests.
After re-reading Shal's comment about no notice sent to owner/mod when subscribing via email from non-gio account, I understand why it may be set up this way. Are web subscribe requests less likely to come from spammers and bots?


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 

"I believe that was implemented so that others couldn't submit subscription requests using your email address." 
Of course.  That makes sense for stand-alone groups.
However, in the case of a subgroup, the person is already a member of the parent group -- which means that they have a trusted relationship with the owners of the parent group. Why make them jump through another hoop to join a subgroup?
Obviates one of the major potential advantages of having subgroups.
--cg

_._,_._,_


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

Mark Murphy
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 07:32 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Which is exactly why I tried to emphasize that I don't want consistency for consistency's sake. I want it because the current inconsistent situation is a hot, confusing mess.
This. Why do I have to care or think about all the various reasons why I as an owner/moderator am sent/not sent apply or confirmation message? I'm not sure that is practical or consistent.

My use case (which I believe is common): As an owner/moderator, I want to get a notification when someone applies to join my group and/or confirms. I'd like to be able to turn these notices off or on at the group level.

Thank you all for this good discussion.

Mark


moderated Re: Bewildered by log entries #misc

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 08:06 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Click the unsubscribe link in a footer. Then click the resubscribe link in the email we send you telling you you've been unsubscribed. 
I've confirmed that this sequence of actions does lead to those two log entries.

Thanks Mark...appreciate the explanation!

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 09:36 PM, David Grimm wrote:
Why would it say 'left group via web' if they left via an unsubscribe button on an email? Shouldn't it say 'unsubscribed via email'?
When you click the footer link, it doesn't actually unsubscribe you right away. Instead, this page opens in a new browser tab:



This is essentially the same as the dialog box that pops up when you click "Leave Group" on the group's Subscription page. Since the confirmation of your wish to leave is actually finalized on the web, I have no real problem with the first log entry saying "left via web." And of course, some action of this kind is desirable, as it's very easy to click the unsub link in the email by mistake.

The resulting action subsequently sends an email with a "Resume Subscription" link that is good for 7 days. There is no such confirmation dialog when you click this resume link. A page does open, but it's only a notification of success. One could make the case that you have thus resumed "via email" instead of "via web." Not sure changing that would make this sequence of log entries any less mysterious, though.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated No link to second page of RSVP responses on iPhone #bug

Charlie Behnken
 

I appears that on an older iPhone when you have more than 20 RSVP responses the bottom of the page including the link to subsequent pages and the footer line - About, Features, Pricing.... is not visible.   Changing the orientation on an older iPhone, Portrait or Landscape, does not fix the problem. Changing from Grid to List also does not matter.

I say an iPhone because that is what I tested it on - iPhone SE (1st generation) and iPhone 8.  I have not tested it on other vendor's phones.  But I say older iPhone, because I just happened to upgrade to an iPhone 12 mini the following day and it works in Landscape mode on the newer phone.

This is an issue as we just started using RSVP in response to the pandemic to limit participation, and more and more members are doing everything on phones these days.

Charlie


moderated #suggestion Add a global "Select All" for the "Sent Invitations" list #suggestion

Michael C. Brenner
 

A "Select all" [accepted | faiiled | sent ] would be very helpful for tracking invitation status when starting a group.
For example, I invited 137 members from a Yahoogroup and now I need to follow up.
I'd like to select all that are still "sent" so I can easily resend after a week.
"Select all Failed" would all me to clean up the list.
as would an "Export" for all rows. Then I could manage in Excel as well


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

Duane
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM, Curt Gowan wrote:
I forgot to say that the members are applying to join subgroups via email to
<subgroup>+subscribe@<parentgroup>.groups.io
Then everything appears to be working normally.  When joining an unrestricted group or subgroup via email, you always need to verify that you intended to join.  I believe that was implemented so that others couldn't submit subscription requests using your email address.

Duane


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 

Oops -- I forgot to say that the members are applying to join subgroups via email to
<subgroup>+subscribe@<parentgroup>.groups.io
We use Yahoo groups via email -- we keep our files on a website. 
Plus, our members are not interested in setting up yet another account somewhere.
Thanks for the reply. 
--cg

That doesn't happen in my test subgroups; a member of the parent group (also restricted) can view and click on any of the subgroups (that are visible) and click on Join and they are added at once with just the (custom) Welcome Notice email sent.  My subgroups are also set as fully-unrestricted, with nothing checked in Spam Control.  I didn't test it, but could it be your subgroup's visibility setting may be set to some setting that will cause this? Mine is set to "(sub)Group listed in parent group, messages viewable by parent members", if you happen to have "messages viewable by subgroup members only" then a Join confirmation email may be appropriate, I don't know.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 

Curt,

However, if member of parent group applies to join a subgroup, they get an email requiring them to confirm.
That doesn't happen in my test subgroups; a member of the parent group (also restricted) can view and click on any of the subgroups (that are visible) and click on Join and they are added at once with just the (custom) Welcome Notice email sent.  My subgroups are also set as fully-unrestricted, with nothing checked in Spam Control.  I didn't test it, but could it be your subgroup's visibility setting may be set to some setting that will cause this? Mine is set to "(sub)Group listed in parent group, messages viewable by parent members", if you happen to have "messages viewable by subgroup members only" then a Join confirmation email may be appropriate, I don't know.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated If member of parent, must still confirm request to join unrestricted subgroup #bug

 

Parent group is restricted. Subgroup is not -- no boxes checked under Spam Control.
Owner of parent group can add them to any subgroup. They get a notice telling how to opt-out. Excellent.
However, if member of parent group applies to join a subgroup, they get an email requiring them to confirm.
For us, this obviates most of the value of subgroups.
(Or am I doing something wrong in the settings?)
Thanks,
--cg


moderated Re: Bewildered by log entries #misc

Duane
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 08:36 PM, David Grimm wrote:
Why would it say 'left group via web' if they left via an unsubscribe button on an email? Shouldn't it say 'unsubscribed via email'?
That's one place where it gets a bit confusing.  Even though they clicked on a link in an email, it goes to the site(web) for them to verify it.

Duane


moderated Re: Bewildered by log entries #misc

David Grimm
 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 08:06 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Click the unsubscribe link in a footer. Then click the resubscribe link in the email we send you telling you you've been unsubscribed. 
 
Which then raises the questions  - Why did I not get that email when I unsubscribed my test account via the web? and Why would it say 'left group via web' if they left via an unsubscribe button on an email? Shouldn't it say 'unsubscribed via email'?

Dave


moderated Re: Bewildered by log entries #misc

 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 10:31 AM Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
Folks -- Some disconcerting log entries have recently been reported in GMF. It involves the following sequence:

<email address> left via web
<same email address> resumed membership via web

Click the unsubscribe link in a footer. Then click the resubscribe link in the email we send you telling you you've been unsubscribed. 

If they didn't click the unsubscribe button, perhaps they forwarded an email to someone else who did click the unsubscribe button? There may be a rare case of an anti-spam system automatically clicking these unsubscribe links (and then also clicking the verification link on the web page).

Hope this helps.
Mark 


moderated Re: Make sequence of mods receipt of pending member notice more consistent #suggestion

 

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 04:28 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'm sure you know the answer to both of these, but are asking "in the voice of" the confused group owners, in order to emphasize the inconsistency.
Yes, exactly. They were all rhetorical questions.

I'll paraphrase the saying: let not the consistent be the enemy of the practical.
 Which is exactly why I tried to emphasize that I don't want consistency for consistency's sake. I want it because the current inconsistent situation is a hot, confusing mess.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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