Date   

moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Duane
 

FWIW, there has to be some default results order, so the existing is as good as any.  If Mark decides to include any of the suggestions in this topic, such as an "advanced" search page/box, there will still need to be some default.  Other than boosting Premium groups to the top of the list, I don't think I'd make any other changes for that.  No default behavior will ever meet everyone's expectations though.

Duane


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

And from the user's point of view, suppose you are looking for groups about horses. You put in the search term "horses." Your search is specifically SAID by groups.io to be a search "by name." What comes up are, first, a page of groups that mention "horses" in their descriptions (perhaps along with all other sundry animals and subjects). On page 2, which you may not even bother getting to, is a group called "AllAboutHorses." It is displayed last because it's group name is capitalized and all the other group names begin with a later letter in the alphabet.

Does that really make sense to you?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 05:39 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I would not expect my search term to be part of the GIO group name.
That's well and good. However, group owners with the search term in their group's name would expect the reverse: namely, not to be displayed pages below a group that only mentions the term in their description, in some cases only tangentially.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

I had not considered this viewpoint and appreciate your efforts to point it out. I suppose it's because I hark back to the research days when wading through "hits" was expected. Oh the time it took to do catalogue searches, hunt down the journal, find the article and only then realize it wasn't dealing with the particular slant on the topic that I needed for my paper! 

I am not one to pick and choose a group because it's at the top of a hit list. I don't own the type of groups that aim to have large numbers of people join or have a lot of activity for days on end.

In internet searches, I prefer DuckDuckGo but if I do find myself searching in Google, I rarely am content with page one results. I tend to go down to where the results start repeating the same webpage information. 

I tend to search GIO groups and contact the owner to evaluate the fit of the group before I request to join. Unless the description makes it very clear from the get-go. It's partly because GIO is not familiar to the new group owners so they aren't yet aware of all they could have done to bring their group to the forefront. I have quite a few gems- small intimate groups with very knowledgeable group owners and members.

I would not expect my search term to be part of the GIO group name. It makes sense that I would more often find my search term in the description or tags. Multiple groups could be described in the same terms or have similar names even though they are very different. One may have a tone that better agrees with me or might be addressing a particular subset of people instead of the general public. Those aren't things I find to be captured easily in a name. 

Groups displaying the highest message numbers often are ones I tend bypass. At least initially. I prefer not to spend time wading through numerous daily emails. I do like seeing the list of hashtag descriptions on their homepage that are the most active. That offers to me a better indication of what the activity is about. 

I tend not to rely on popular results either. My tastes don't seem to mesh with most of today's online population.

I do think having a way to know if the group requires a membership fee and if it is a Premium tier group would be useful sorting criteria. That would help narrow the results or help me fill them. 

What ever happens in the way of searches criteris changing will be interesting to see. 

--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site the last two weeks:

  • DOCS: Updates from Nina.
  • NEW: Added a confirmation dialog when saving a photo edit and moved the Notify Members checkbox into it, for hobgoblins.
  • NEW: Added a confirmation dialog when saving a wiki edit and moved the Notify Members checkbox into it, for hobgoblins.
  • NEW: There wasn't an option to notify members when deleting a wiki page.
  • CHANGE: Added a confirmation dialog when changing an email address.
  • CHANGE: Added (members with private profiles are not shown) to the member directory display, for when non-mods are viewing the directory.
  • INTERNAL: More work on converting templates to quicktemplate.
  • CHANGE: Make +owner messages obey DMARC and the other from re-write rules that we typically apply to group messages.
  • BUGFIX: For users with military time display preference, time columns in databases were displayed using standard time notation, and editing rows would lead to blank time columns.
  • CHANGE: In addition to sending a one word 'unsubscribe' email to start the unsubscribe process, it is now also triggered if just the first line of an email to the group is 'unsubscribe'.
  • CHANGE: Updated the plan comparison page with suggestions from Bruce.
  • INTERNAL: Updated the Go compiler.

The next #changelog will be on December 4th.

Take care everyone.

Mark


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

Some groups have already added text to their descriptions along the lines of “Keywords: apples, bananas, grapes.” I think the real problem in that regard, or one of them, is that the order does not prioritize terms in the name vs in the description. Worse is assigning no priorities to more active or popular groups. The alpha sort will put a group with 10 members and no activity for the past 3 years above an active group simply because its name is not capitalized or comes later in the alphabet. The active group might come pages later and many people won’t bother to scroll through.


On Nov 20, 2020, at 8:23 PM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

How about adding an option to “Search key words” somewhere, with such words selected by the group owner and presumably identifying the primary interest or function of said group?

Best!

WRB

— 

On Nov 20, 2020, at 9:41 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:37 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
I find it difficult to search for relevant groups and often just give
up.
Is that because the list of groups returned is too large and hard to sort through because it is displayed in a non-helpful way (I would agree there), or because many of the groups returned are irrelevant because of the lack of any sort order other than alphabetical (I would agree there also), or because the list of groups returned simply doesn't contain groups you're looking for (which we've seen can happen by Duane's example)? Or a combination of all three? Would adding the ability to sort by Most Popular, Most Recent, or Most Active help?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

txercoupemuseum.org
 

How about adding an option to “Search key words” somewhere, with such words selected by the group owner and presumably identifying the primary interest or function of said group?

Best!

WRB

— 

On Nov 20, 2020, at 9:41 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:37 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
I find it difficult to search for relevant groups and often just give
up.
Is that because the list of groups returned is too large and hard to sort through because it is displayed in a non-helpful way (I would agree there), or because many of the groups returned are irrelevant because of the lack of any sort order other than alphabetical (I would agree there also), or because the list of groups returned simply doesn't contain groups you're looking for (which we've seen can happen by Duane's example)? Or a combination of all three? Would adding the ability to sort by Most Popular, Most Recent, or Most Active help?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:37 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
I find it difficult to search for relevant groups and often just give
up.
Is that because the list of groups returned is too large and hard to sort through because it is displayed in a non-helpful way (I would agree there), or because many of the groups returned are irrelevant because of the lack of any sort order other than alphabetical (I would agree there also), or because the list of groups returned simply doesn't contain groups you're looking for (which we've seen can happen by Duane's example)? Or a combination of all three? Would adding the ability to sort by Most Popular, Most Recent, or Most Active help?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Donald Hellen
 

I also find the search groups feature doesn't prioritize groups where
the search words are in the group's name.

I find it difficult to search for relevant groups and often just give
up.

Donald



On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 12:59:05 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be most helpful if the display order

(1) prioritized groups with the search term in the name rather than just the description (whether in quotes or not - I'd now like to change the title of my group based on these extremely misleading results, but too late for that);'

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: Invitation email misdirection #bug

 

We're finding that people are suspicious because they don't know what groups.io is -- even Yahoo Groups members.  Hence my suggestion of adding something like "a modern platform for serious online communities" to the invitation emails.
--cg



From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> on behalf of Curt Gowan <curt.gowan@...>
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 2:12 PM
To: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io>
Subject: [beta] Invitation email misdirection #bug
 
If a group owner invites someone who has a gmail address, they get this friendly, well-worded email:
 
---------------------
Invitation to join the <GroupName>.groups.io group
 
Hello,
 
You have been invited by <OwnerName> to join the Groups.io group   <GroupName>.groups.io.
 
The following message was included by <OwnerName>:
 
<umpteen-line invitation text from group owner>
 
To accept the invitation, please reply to this email, or you may accept the invitation <CodedLink> on the website.
 
If you have questions about this invitation, send them to <GroupOwnerAddress>
 
To accept the invitation, please reply to this email, or you may accept the invitation on the website.
 
If you are not interested, or if <InviteeEmail> is not your email address, please ignore this email.
 
Cheers,
The Groups.io Team
---------------------
 
Sending a reply or clicking on the coded link both work fine.
 
However, Gmail makes
<groupname>.groups.io  
in the first line into a live link.
 
That link is the first thing the recipient sees.
A significant percentage of invitees will not see the rest of the instructions after the group owner's text and will simply click the link. 
 
If the recipient clicks the link, they go the homepage for the group, with a button "Apply for Membership In This Group"
 
When they click the button, they get this screen 
"Your request to join the <GroupName>.groups.io Groups.io group has been submitted to the group managers."
 
Seems to me that the group name should be given in the email without ".groups.io" appended -- so that it is not converted by gmail into a link, which adds steps for the invitee and leads them off the track.
 
Perhaps that line in the invitation email could say something like this...
You have been invited by <OwnerName> to join <GroupName> on the Groups.io system, a modern platform for serious online communities.
 
Thanks for listening,
--cg
 


moderated Invitation email misdirection #bug

 

If a group owner invites someone who has a gmail address, they get this friendly, well-worded email:
 
---------------------
Invitation to join the <GroupName>.groups.io group
 
Hello,
 
You have been invited by <OwnerName> to join the Groups.io group   <GroupName>.groups.io.
 
The following message was included by <OwnerName>:
 
<umpteen-line invitation text from group owner>
 
To accept the invitation, please reply to this email, or you may accept the invitation <CodedLink> on the website.
 
If you have questions about this invitation, send them to <GroupOwnerAddress>
 
To accept the invitation, please reply to this email, or you may accept the invitation on the website.
 
If you are not interested, or if <InviteeEmail> is not your email address, please ignore this email.
 
Cheers,
The Groups.io Team
---------------------
 
Sending a reply or clicking on the coded link both work fine.
 
However, Gmail makes
<groupname>.groups.io  
in the first line into a live link.
 
That link is the first thing the recipient sees.
A significant percentage of invitees will not see the rest of the instructions after the group owner's text and will simply click the link. 
 
If the recipient clicks the link, they go the homepage for the group, with a button "Apply for Membership In This Group"
 
When they click the button, they get this screen 
"Your request to join the <GroupName>.groups.io Groups.io group has been submitted to the group managers."
 
Seems to me that the group name should be given in the email without ".groups.io" appended -- so that it is not converted by gmail into a link, which adds steps for the invitee and leads them off the track.
 
Perhaps that line in the invitation email could say something like this...
You have been invited by <OwnerName> to join <GroupName> on the Groups.io system, a modern platform for serious online communities.
 
Thanks for listening,
--cg
 


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

Based on Duane's results I just changed my group description to include the term "feline lymphoma" without "small cell" in the middle of it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 01:28 PM, Duane wrote:
By using "feline lymphoma" (without quotes), it narrows it down to 4.  With quotes, there are only 2.
And of the two, one of them (the feline cancer group) deals with feline lymphoma only very tangentially if at all. It happens to include those words deep in the description. My group, on the other hand, specifically and *only* deals with feline lymphoma, and is not included in the "feline lymphoma" search because the title is "Feline Small Cell Lymphoma," a specific kind. So the results for "feline lymphoma" are very, very misleading to people looking for a group on feline lymphoma.

It would be most helpful if the display order

(1) prioritized groups with the search term in the name rather than just the description (whether in quotes or not - I'd now like to change the title of my group based on these extremely misleading results, but too late for that);'

(2) did away with the whole uppercase, lowercase criterion;

(3) allowed a second filter chosed by user according to the criteria available for non-name searches (Duane has showed how simple this would be to implement);

(4) IMO did away with the alpha order, or at minimum used alpha order instead of reverse alpha order;

How can I change the name of my group to have it display in a "feline lymphoma" search? Or how can the search be changed to include it, since we ONLY deal with feline lymphoma and are (misleadingly) not included in these results?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Email Address change #suggestion

 

Hi All,

I just added a confirmation dialog when changing your email address. It displays the new email address and requires that you click the Ok button to proceed. Please check it out and if you think an additional step is needed after that, please let me know.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Tell members why the Directory only shows them some other members #suggestion

 

Hello,

I've added `(members with private profiles are not shown)` to the page when a non-moderator is viewing the page.

Thanks,
Mark

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:12 AM Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:38 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
At the top, the Directory page says "Showing 294 of 1103 Members". Please add to that statement "809 members with private profiles not shown".
Shal/Mark -- Any members who are Not Confirmed or are Bouncing also do not appear in the Directory. May I suggest to simply state "Members with private profiles not shown"? Otherwise this could raise additional questions as to why the numbers don't add up. 

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Tell members why the Directory only shows them some other members #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:38 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
At the top, the Directory page says "Showing 294 of 1103 Members". Please add to that statement "809 members with private profiles not shown".
Shal/Mark -- Any members who are Not Confirmed or are Bouncing also do not appear in the Directory. May I suggest to simply state "Members with private profiles not shown"? Otherwise this could raise additional questions as to why the numbers don't add up. 

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Tell members why the Directory only shows them some other members #suggestion

 

Mark,

It's a FAQ in GMF and Group_Help: "My group members report that in the Directory they only see (some small number) of the (some large number of) members. Why?"

At the top, the Directory page says "Showing 294 of 1103 Members". Please add to that statement "809 members with private profiles not shown".

Shal


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Duane
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 02:00 PM, Drew wrote:
I suspect that most people who type in terms for a group search are probably inputting multiple word searches
I usually start with one word.  If I get a big bunch of results, I'll try to think of another one that could narrow it more.  (I'm mostly successful, but sometimes it's interesting just to scroll through a big list.)  Using J's "feline" example, it currently finds 47 groups.  By using "feline lymphoma" (without quotes), it narrows it down to 4.  With quotes, there are only 2.

Duane


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Drew
 

It may be helpful to group owners to consider all of the possible keywords that pertain to their group's particular interest and include those words in a separate section of your group description. There are very few, if any, group categories that can't be narrowed to one page or less of results with just a two- or three-word search.

I suspect that most people who type in terms for a group search are probably inputting multiple word searches rather than just "cats", "dogs", "cars", etc. For exampel "cats illness", or "american cars", etc narrows multiple page results to just one page. At that point it's not particularly useful to order the results by creation date or number of subscribers, etc. since it's so easy to scan by eye.

Drew

On 11/19/20 14:35, Marv Waschke wrote:
I give Mark credit for providing functionality here without a lot of work on his part. I'm sure it's all priorities.
That being said, J_Catlady has a point. Ease in finding groups to join is important to both group owners and potential group members. A lot could be done to improve this interface. Very few people are capable of sussing out url search syntax like Duane. Perhaps we can do Mark a service by figuring out what could be done to make the interface more useful.
The simplest value add that I can see is to use the choice of sort orders on the left (Most Popular, Most Active, Newest, By Name) to sort the results of a search, not just the unfiltered list. I would also change the collation sequence of the By Name sort to be case insensitive. Much more sophisticated Google-search-like approaches are possible, I suppose, but this sounds relatively simple to implement.
Let me repeat: I would give this some priority because it would make gio groups more accessible.
Best, Marv


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

I just searched for an Apple-Mac group on my iPad. There we 72 results listed on one page. What I found useful was the full description of the groups. So even those with somewhat "weird" group names were included. It wasn't hard for me to scroll down the list and determine those that were of interest to me. 

I then search for feline and got 47 hits on "one page". 
Many people use mobile devices and being able to scroll down the entire list is very helpful instead of having to click a new page of results. 

It would have been nice to see which of groups were closed or charged a member fee so I didnt spend time considering if those groups were a good fit. A few of the pages that I visited didn't put that information into their description. I wasn't interested in paying to join a group. 

I do like that the search captured terms used in their description and not just their group name. I have experience in Boolean searches so having some sort of advanced feature search would be welcome. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.

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