Date   

moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Donald Hellen
 

Could someone word this well enough to make this a suggestion? I'll
chime in with my support.

It's not a bug as such as it was set up this crazy way.

Donald

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 14:37:51 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

It doesn't seem to matter in what order elastisearch returns the results, because as Duane himself and others have said, and as we have seen with our own eyes, the display order is turned into strictly alphabetical order (actually reverse alphabetical) with lower case names coming first.

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 02:24 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
the relationship between the search results order and the actual search term are not necessarily due to Elasticsearch, as you asserted.
And it seems that it in fact is not.
Of course, there's one person who could answer this in 2 seconds, and that is the person I addressed in my original message in this thread. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

It doesn't seem to matter in what order elastisearch returns the results, because as Duane himself and others have said, and as we have seen with our own eyes, the display order is turned into strictly alphabetical order (actually reverse alphabetical) with lower case names coming first. 

"I believe the default is descending lower case, followed by descending upper case, according to group name.  For example:
water
balloon
Water
Balloon"

https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/26868

It is clear that the display order bears no relationship to the search term and I find that problematic. How Duane can argue first that the order is strictly alphabetical, and later that it has something to do with the search term, is a mystery to me. Unless, Duane, you changed your mind about the alpha order? I have played around with these searches for a couple days now and have seen nothing to the contrary. It seems to me that you were right in your very first response here. I found it unbelievable at first, but it does seem to be the case that groups.io pays no attention to the search term itself when displaying the results.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Duane
 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 04:24 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I'm simply pointing out that the relationship between the search results order and the actual search term are not necessarily due to Elasticsearch, as you asserted.
True, it's totally dependent on what order the database is saved.  Elasticsearch will list them in the order they're retrieved from the search, since all results will have a score of 1, unless some processing is done.

Duane


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Glenn Glazer
 

On Sat, 11/21 14:18, Duane wrote:
On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 03:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
But that order is effectively random.
Not completely.  It has to be searching the (listed) group-name/description database which is apparently stored in ASCII order.  Since the results page shows By Name, then it's doing a bottom up search.  Anyone with a bit of computer programming experience knows that in ASCII all of the upper case characters come before all of the lower case characters which is the reverse of the order the results are listed - bottom up.

Duane

If the search is specified without a sort order, then elasticsearch does not promise an ordering to the result set as that SO link pointed out. As J_Catlady pointed out, the code could very easily be doing post-processing on the result set. What we see are the final results, none of us have the ability to determine which part of the code is doing what.

I'm not arguing that the end effect is desirable. I definitely agree there is room for improvement. I'm simply pointing out that the relationship between the search results order and the actual search term are not necessarily due to Elasticsearch, as you asserted.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Duane
 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 03:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
But that order is effectively random.
Not completely.  It has to be searching the (listed) group-name/description database which is apparently stored in ASCII order.  Since the results page shows By Name, then it's doing a bottom up search.  Anyone with a bit of computer programming experience knows that in ASCII all of the upper case characters come before all of the lower case characters which is the reverse of the order the results are listed - bottom up.

Duane


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Glenn Glazer
 

On Sat, 11/21 14:02, J_Catlady wrote:
On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:

But that order is effectively random.
If so, then groups.io apparently does a bit of post-processing to put the results in reverse alpha order with lowercase names first. Either way, the display order totally unrelated to the search term. An extremely simple fix would be simply to prioritize the groups with the search term IN the name (especailly since groups.io itself calls the search "By Name"). If groups.io is already post-processing the results of elastisearch, it may as well do it in a way that makes a nonzero amount of sense.

I've never seen the code, I can't speak to what it does or doesn't do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:

But that order is effectively random.
If so, then groups.io apparently does a bit of post-processing to put the results in reverse alpha order with lowercase names first. Either way, the display order totally unrelated to the search term. An extremely simple fix would be simply to prioritize the groups with the search term IN the name (especailly since groups.io itself calls the search "By Name"). If groups.io is already post-processing the results of elastisearch, it may as well do it in a way that makes a nonzero amount of sense.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 01:58 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The display does not
Should read "the display order does not"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 01:43 PM, Duane wrote:
I believe there is.  It's the order that Elasticsearch found them
Which, as you yourself have said repeatedly, is nothing more than reverse alpha with lowercase names first. This has zero relationship to the search term. The set of results is related to the search term. The display does not.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Glenn Glazer
 

On Sat, 11/21 13:43, Duane wrote:
On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 02:41 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
There is currently NO relationship between the search results order and the actual search term.
I believe there is.  It's the order that Elasticsearch found them in the (listed) group-name/description database.

Duane

But that order is effectively random.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23919296/how-is-elastic-search-sorting-when-no-sort-option-specified-and-no-search-query

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Duane
 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 02:41 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
There is currently NO relationship between the search results order and the actual search term.
I believe there is.  It's the order that Elasticsearch found them in the (listed) group-name/description database.

Duane


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

The bad examples are more frequent than the good ones. In a search on "IBD," three groups that just mention the term tangentially in their descriptions display first. (One of them uses the term simply to say that the group does NOT deal with IBD.) The only group that is *specifically* about IBD (and has "IBD" in its title) comes up last. In this case, there are only four groups total. But in other cases there can be a page or more before the actual relevant group even shows up.
https://groups.io/search?q=ibd

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 12:26 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
Yahoo Groups seemed to
have a more relevant search results order
Would be hard not to. There is currently NO relationship between the search results order and the actual search term.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Donald Hellen
 

Yes, to me this is important and it doesn't work intuitively like
that.

Donald



On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 06:50:13 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

That's well and good. However, group owners with the search term in their group's name would expect the reverse: namely, not to be displayed pages below a group that only mentions the term in their description, in some cases only tangentially.

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

Donald Hellen
 

The list is indeed too large and it doesn't sort on relevant terms in
the groupname. If I wanted to look through hundreds of groups that
have the words in their description and not the groupname, I would
expect those to show up further down the list. Yahoo Groups seemed to
have a more relevant search results order if I remember correctly.

Donald

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 19:41:54 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Is that because the list of groups returned is too large and hard to sort through because it is displayed in a non-helpful way (I would agree there), or because many of the groups returned are irrelevant because of the lack of any sort order other than alphabetical (I would agree there also), or because the list of groups returned simply doesn't contain groups you're looking for (which we've seen can happen by Duane's example)? Or a combination of all three? Would adding the ability to sort by Most Popular, Most Recent, or Most Active help?

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 10:04 AM, Curt Gowan wrote:
from "Group not listed in directory, private messages"
to      "Group listed in directory, private messages"
Of course, because if your group was not listed in the directory, it is not findable and would not display to the public. Now it's subject to whatever search/display criteria are being used, with all the attendant problems being mentioned here.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

FWIW, words or phrases in the description of our parent group started coming up in searches immediately after I changed 
Settings > Privacy > Visibility 
from "Group not listed in directory, private messages"
to      "Group listed in directory, private messages"

Words or phrases in the description of a subgroup are not findable, which is makes sense.
To work around that, I added one line about each subgroup to the description of the parent group. Now findable.

--cg


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

Still doesn't solve these issues.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: What is the algorithm for the display order of groups after entering a keyword search? #misc

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 08:53 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
the search results are based on what a group owner puts in the description,
Thanks, I intentionally inserted "feline lymphoma" into the description somewhere right after seeing Duane's results.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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