Date   

locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

 

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback, please keep it coming. Just a couple of
clarifications. The terms of service that Groups.io already has
protects us and specifies that we do not allow anything illegal. Also,
I am in complete agreement that group owners/moderators should be able
to ban anyone they want. Really what I am trying to explore is
something that talks more about how people should treat each other. To
quote Wil Wheaton, "don't be a dick". I don't know how enforceable
that can or should be from our end. But it seems that at least putting
something out there might help.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Non-members posting to list

 

Mark,

I can convert things to groupname+int+name@groups.io, while keeping
the current functionality. Hmm, some existing email integrations have
names with spaces in them, which won't work with this.
It's always something.

Of course the obvious ad hoc solutions would be to remove the spaces or convert them to + signs. There may be other characters you need to watch out for also, @ comes to mind. I'm not sure what else the Name field of an email integration is used for, that may influence whether it makes sense to put email-compatible restrictions on the names.

I'm wondering if there's a better way to solve this. Maybe a
+questions alias that behaves the same as +owner?
That would work for my use case, and probably others' as well. Naive users might be more likely to understand and use a +questions address.

The only downside I see is that having one more open address likely means receiving one more copy of each spam message that is sent to every address in the universe. Not that I've had much spam come via any of my groups' owner addresses (and yes, I opt to receive from anyone, not restricted to members), but I have heard others complain of it.

-- Shal


locked Re: Shortened URLs for message permalinks #suggestion

 

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Shal Farley <shal@roadrunner.com> wrote:

The message permalinks aren't hideously long, but they are a bit to ask someone to read and type. (That is, when placed on printed material, such as my PTA registration forms). So for example:

https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/2660

I wouldn't mind having a natively shortened URL that retains the group name and message number, such as:

https://groups.io/m/beta/2660
Yeah, I've had second thoughts about the URLs. They're like that
because of organizations, which are groups of groups under a specific
subdomain. The 'groupsio' part in the URLs is replaced with the name
of the org (so, URLs for the 'test' org are like:
/org/test/group1/....).

Right now, an org's subdomain only comes into play with email
addresses. I could force people to use the subdomain when accessing
the website, and then use that to discriminate the URLs. I have not
thought through what issues there may be if I start routing all URLs
via subdomain. There may be something, I'm just not sure yet.

More than you wanted to know. Anyways, I've gone ahead and created the
short URL for accessing individual messages, as you specified above.
It does not yet work for groups in orgs, but there aren't many of
those yet.

Mark


locked Re: Non-members posting to list

 

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:13 PM, Shal Farley <shal@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Mark, On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 03:51 pm, Trish wrote: > > People send to: >
<groupname+int+26+2976997378244722726@groups.io> Does it have to be so
unfriendly?
Yeah, perhaps not one of my better design decisions.

I can convert things to groupname+int+name@groups.io, while keeping
the current functionality. Hmm, some existing email integrations have
names with spaces in them, which won't work with this.


Note that I do not intend to let any such messages post to the group, I just
want a group-related address for people to use if they have questions about
the registration form. I only have a few days to provide the school with
final copy (why so early? because the administration gets busier as
graduation approaches) so perhaps I'll just use my personal gmail address.
I'm wondering if there's a better way to solve this. Maybe a
+questions alias that behaves the same as +owner?

Mark


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

Steph <hsrsp@...>
 

Hello Mark and everyone,
First of all I think that you should put something in place for groups that show no activity within 60 to 90 days. I say that because there are many groups on Yahoo groups that are like that. Also have some guidelines in place for the owners and moderators and I suggest that because I've also seen some on Yahoo groups that I've been a member of fail to keep up with their groups and put all of the ownership responsibility on their moderators.

I agree that you should have guidelines in place for all the users to follow. That's my 2 cents worth. Steph

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Hallsworth" <challsworth2@icloud.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 1:51 PM
To: <beta@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [beta] Community Code of Conduct

Hi Mark

I own two groups as you know. As far as I'm concerned, no code of conduct should be needed. Instead, we all should follow rules and guidelines set out by each group. Regrettably, I may know the person who has sent in the complaint, but I'm sorry, it's my groups and if they think they were treated unfairly then they obviously did not respect the rules and guidelines of the group(s).

Just my £0.02 worth.
On 30 Apr 2015, at 00:22, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark


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locked The attachment icon lacks identification of the file #bug #suggestion

 

Mark,

One bug(?):

Two messages in my PTA group have PDF files as attachments. One appears with a ? in the attachment icon (blue-outline sheet), the other helpfully says PDF inside the icon. Notably the ? one must be downloaded (Chrome and Firefox) but the PDF one opens in the browser, which I prefer.

Looking at the View Source there's a clue that they are different because I used different email systems. The one that worked was gmail and specified the attachment as "Content-Type: application/pdf;", whereas the other was Eudora Classic and specified the attachment as "Content-Type: application/octet-stream;"

When the MIME info is ambiguous I don't know if that can be overcome by trusting the file name (when it specifies a type) or examining the file content. Or maybe this is too narrow a use case to bother with.
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/MHS-PTSA/message/48
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/MHS-PTSA/message/49

Two suggestions:

Notably, on those pages there is no indication anywhere that the message has an attachment, other than the attachment icon itself. A paperclip in the Subject line would be welcome here, as it is in the Message or Thread View lists.

Also, there's no display of the attachment file name or other information about it. Showing the name at least would be helpful, showing the size or anything else known about it also might be nice.

-- Shal


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

 

Hi Mark, 

If you do write a code of conduct, could you please also include not allowing dog fighting/animal harming/bestiality groups as well as pedophile/child pornography groups? I know you were mostly looking for how people treat each other in discussions, but it would be nice to never come across these kinds of groups on the groups.io service.

I do think it's better to keep it short so people will read it. Perhaps put a link to the code of conduct on the screen you see when you log into groups..io?

I like the first one as it's fairly short but covers a lot of good points. My suggested changes are below.

Thanks
Trish

Code of Conduct

Conduct

  • We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, religion, or similar personal characteristic.
  • On IRC, please avoid using overtly sexual nicknames or other nicknames that might detract from a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all. Please keep in mind there may be children reading the group posts in some of our groups.
  • Please be kind and courteous. There's no need to be mean or rude. Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every design or implementation choice carries a trade-off and numerous costs. There is seldom a right answer.
  • Please keep unstructured critique to a minimum. If you have solid ideas you want to experiment with, make a fork and see how it works.
  • We don't tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups. We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior. We interpret the term "harassment" as including the definition in the Citizen Code of Conduct; if you have any lack of clarity about what might be included in that concept, please read their definition. In particular, 
  • Private harassment is also unacceptable. No matter who you are, if you feel you have been or are being harassed or made uncomfortable by a community member, please contact one of the channel ops or any of the Rust core team immediately. Whether you're a regular contributor or a newcomer, we care about making this community a safe place for you and we've got your back.
  • Likewise any spamming, trolling, flaming, baiting or other attention-stealing behavior is not welcome.
  • Groups.io does not allow groups related to these topics: child pornography, pedophelia, dog fighting, cock fighting, bestiality, crush, human or animal abuse of any kind, or anything that is illegal. 

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 7:22 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark




locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

 

On 4/30/2015 11:51 AM, Christopher Hallsworth wrote:
Instead, we all should follow rules and guidelines set out by each group.
True - but I do suspect there should be some site rules that will
protect Mark - if they are nothing more than "nothing that is actually
illegal".

dg


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

christopher hallsworth <challsworth2@...>
 

Hi Mark

I own two groups as you know. As far as I'm concerned, no code of conduct should be needed. Instead, we all should follow rules and guidelines set out by each group. Regrettably, I may know the person who has sent in the complaint, but I'm sorry, it's my groups and if they think they were treated unfairly then they obviously did not respect the rules and guidelines of the group(s).

Just my £0.02 worth.

On 30 Apr 2015, at 00:22, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

 

I have been a group owner and a co-owner.  Never in all the years that I've been with Yahoo have a felt any group member had done something that necessitated banning him or her.  I have been a member of a group where the owner had a lengthy list of group rules which were more stringent than what Yahoo had.  During the short time I was a member, she banned at least one person. 

I do agree with Mark in that there should be a Code of Conduct or Guidelines as Yahoo calls them.  I also agree that if the guidlines/code of conduct is very lengthy people will not read them.  They will just click the I Accept button without really knowing what they accepted.

Perhaps if a group member feels that he or she has been unfairly banned, there should be a system in place to where the member and the group owner, along with a mediator could communicate.  In many situations, it all boils down to a misunderstanding.   The mediator would not be affiliated with the group from which the member was banned. 

I think a Code of Conduct is a good idea.




locked Shortened URLs for message permalinks #suggestion

 

Mark,

The message permalinks aren't hideously long, but they are a bit to ask someone to read and type. (That is, when placed on printed material, such as my PTA registration forms). So for example:

https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/message/2660

I wouldn't mind having a natively shortened URL that retains the group name and message number, such as:

https://groups.io/m/beta/2660

I can use TinyURL, tiny.cc, bit.ly or another URL shortener to get something even shorter, but legibility/type-ability count for for something too, in my opinion. Given that I have other options, this isn't a high priority need.

-- Shal


locked Re: Non-members posting to list

 

Mark, On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 03:51 pm, Trish wrote: > > People send to: > <groupname+int+26+2976997378244722726@groups.io> Does it have to be so unfriendly? I wanted to put a contact email address on the PTA's page in the registration packet to be sent out to incoming students this August. But I can't expect people to type in that monstrosity.

And absent a generic non-member posting feature I can't use the vastly simpler MHS-PTSA@groups.io address. I suppose I could use MHS-PTSA+owner@groups.io, that's not so bad but it is still ugly and potentially confusing ("owner"? what's that?)..

Could the integration address be formed from the name I give it? Then I could have something like MHS-PTSA+int+info@groups.io which wouldn't be so bad (it is more about legibility/type-ability than about length per se).

Note that I do not intend to let any such messages post to the group, I just want a group-related address for people to use if they have questions about the registration form. I only have a few days to provide the school with final copy (why so early? because the administration gets busier as graduation approaches) so perhaps I'll just use my personal gmail address.

-- Shal


locked Site updates #changelog

 

Bug fix week continues. Changes to the site the last two days:

  • When editing a message written by someone else, the wrong name was inserted in the From: line when the message was resent.
  • Some notification emails were missing Date: fields.
  • Added automatic unsubscribe when a member marks a message as spam.
  • Fixed an issue with Slack member sync that would cause Slack members to not be removed from Slack teams because we weren't asking for the correct Oauth scope.
  • Better parsing of AOL bounce message reasons.
  • Fixed an issue with deleting the cover photo of a photo album.

Thanks, Mark


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

Joseph Hudson <jhud7789@...>
 

Hi Mark, while I agree that a cut of conduct is in order, most groups on your service at least the ones I am part of we have rules and whatnot posted on our group, and when I remember subscribes to a group there is A set of rules that they should follow sent out to them as soon as they're approved by I was donor. So just wondering if you were to put a code of conduct up if it would override our current rules and God Lines? Because I am on two groups right now but I know that send out rules and guidelines when we except a member. And if you would like a copy of our code of conduct, of rules and guidelines that I have I will be glad to copy and paste each one and send them to you.

Do you have a problem navigating social media? Do you find that email is the best way to communicate, are you interested in meeting new people and making new friends? Then we have created a group for you.this group, is where blind and deaf individuals can get together and socialize in communicate. If you were interested please subscribe here.

chat-request@... from my iPhone

On Apr 29, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark



locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

Marlin47
 

Mark, I would urge you to be very careful with this.

I would think you would want to distance yourself from this, as best as you could, for fear of alienating the group owners.

Being realistic, I am very well aware that there may be times when you might have to get involved if there is something going on in a group that demands something like police intervention, but I think the fewer rules and/or guidelines, the better.

For the person who complained to you that they were banned from a group, it seems to me that this decision should be entirely up to the group owner.

About the time you would have a guideline, or worse get involved in that, the group owner will decide he needs to have his group elsewhere.

I wonder, has there ever been, in all history, any person who was ever banned from any group who did not think he was treated unfairly or poorly?

Group owners and their groups are a wondrous diversity of viewpoints and philosophies. I only see imposed guidelines as imposing on that diversity.

Marlin

On 4/29/2015 6:22 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Community Code of Conduct

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
Folks won't read the Code of Conduct, especially if it's too wordy. Yahoo's Guidelines are well-written, in my opinion: https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/guidelines/groups/index.htm

Regarding banning, a group owner should have sole discretion and not have to justify his actions. I don't believe you should ever get involved.

Thanks,
Linda


locked Re: Spam button reports

 

Hi Diana,

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Diana Gregory <diana@catsandme.net> wrote:

So the question that all this leads up to, Mark - what do you do if
the email that reports a message as spam is not actually subscribed
to the group?
The spam reports that we receive include the message that was reported
as spam. The receiving email address is removed from the header
because of privacy issues with the various email providers. What we do
is look for the Unsubscribe link in the message footer. That contains
enough subscription information for us to figure out who the message
was sent to.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Community Code of Conduct

 

Hi All,

Many communities are starting to adopt codes of conduct and I'm
wondering if we should have one for the groups on Groups.io. Here are
two examples:

http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/

One of the reasons this is on my mind is that I've gotten a complaint
from someone who was banned from a group and thinks they were/are
being treated unfairly or poorly. It would be nice to have a document
that I could point people to that would specify what constitutes abuse
and what, if anything, happens if abuse does take place. Just being
banned from a group would not be abuse, for example. Violent threats
against someone would be abuse.

As Groups.io grows, we will get more of these complaints and I want to
make sure we're consistent about how we respond. Also, it's important
to me that the people who use Groups.io are respectful of each other.

Questions: Do you agree with having a Code of Conduct? If so, do you
agree that it should spell out what would happen to violators? And if
so, do you have thoughts on what actions should be taken with those
violators?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Spam button reports

 

On 4/29/2015 2:47 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
What I've done for now is implemented the auto unsubscribe on
spam report.
There's been an interesting (and frustrating) discussion in the
Google Groups about spam reporting.

Background - someone with a group called "humorerotica" decided to
go through and put everyone who was nomail on digest. Some of the
folks who suddenly started getting mail tagged it as spam, and the
group owner can't post to his group (assume nobody can, since that
would prevent anything being sent out from the group).

Aside from the sheer idiocy of doing this instead of putting people
on special notices (especially for a group with this name!), apparently
some folks are getting the mail at addresses that are not subscribed.

I'm assuming that at some point an email address that is subscribed
got .forwarded - and also that that could happen with a groups.io
member.

So the question that all this leads up to, Mark - what do you do if
the email that reports a message as spam is not actually subscribed
to the group? Could be anything from a simple difference where a
person signed up when their system included their host in the email
and then upgraded to a central system (diana@bast.slac.stanford.edu
became diana@slac.stanford.edu - so the spam report would be coming
from diana@slac.stanford.edu, which is not an exact match to any
address in the group), to more complex where the subbed address is
completely different.

dg


locked Re: Spam button reports

 

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Linda <groupseieio@gmail.com> wrote:

Re:
https://groupsio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202739445-Subscription-Options

The bottom line is duplicated, but
only the second line has a link:

Have more questions? Submit a request.
Have more questions? Submit a request
Hmm, something to do with the template, I think. I just changed it.
Hopefully that'll fix it (it appears to be cached so I'm hoping that
it fixes itself when the cache is flushed at some point).

Thanks,
Mark