Date   

Message Approval #suggestion #done

Duane
 

I normally read and approve pending messages one at a time.  Now and then I select all pending messages and click Approve.  Most of the time it doesn't make any difference, but I noticed an anomaly this morning.  It appears that the messages are actually processed for approval in the order listed on the pending page.  In my case, it shows as newest first.  This can lead to a follow up reply being posted to the group before the initial reply.  I believe it would be more appropriate for messages to be processed in the order received when multiple messages are being approved.

Thank you,
Duane


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

I don't know about the email commands, but the suggestion for the website strikes me as the height of simplicity.

Something needs to be done to remedy this. Yes, it's really broken. Clearly if you're asking whether it's broken you have not yet experienced it. It's one thing to intellectually argue that "it does what it says it does," and that "locking the topic again the next evening seems logical." It's another to experience being completely unable to resurrect a topic simply because it was locked due to group time-out, and before even realizing that, to experience a manually unlocked topic coming back as locked over and over again. It is completely unintuitive and (I would argue) unexpected. At least, it was highly unexpected by me, and I have been aware and appreciative of the auto-lock and auto-moderate feature since the day it was implemented. Only later did I start to experience this issue.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 08:00 PM, JohnF wrote:
Here's my suggestion. If a moderator is actively unlocking a topic that follows the auto-lock rules (via the web), pop up a message indicating that the topic was locked per the rules, and does the moderator wish to exclude the topic from the rules, Yes/No? If No, then it will lock again later that evening. If Yes, it will be excluded from the auto-lock.

If this is being done by email commands, a message could be sent requesting the same answer. If the moderator doesn't respond, that's treated as a No.
I'm not aware of any way to lock/unlock a topic via email commands.

If this is being done by API, there could be an optional setting to make it permanent or not as part of the request. If not specified, it defaults to No.

If a topic is excluded from auto-locking, a nondescript message would indicate this when a moderator with locking privileges views the topic on the web, mostly to prevent bug reports ("Hey, why isn't this topic being auto-locked????")

I think that will be the friendliest way to do it. It could also use a #noautolock hashtag, but I don't want to encourage hashtag pollution.
This strikes me as really complicated. 

Backing up, I have to ask...is this really broken? If so, it seems to me that the fix is worse than the problem.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

And do the same for auto-moderation when the group is set to auto-moderate.

On Aug 19, 2020, at 5:14 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Sounds 100% good to me.
On Aug 19, 2020, at 5:00 PM, JohnF via groups.io <johnf1686=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here's my suggestion. If a moderator is actively unlocking a topic that follows the auto-lock rules (via the web), pop up a message indicating that the topic was locked per the rules, and does the moderator wish to exclude the topic from the rules, Yes/No? If No, then it will lock again later that evening. If Yes, it will be excluded from the auto-lock.

If this is being done by email commands, a message could be sent requesting the same answer. If the moderator doesn't respond, that's treated as a No.

If this is being done by API, there could be an optional setting to make it permanent or not as part of the request. If not specified, it defaults to No.

If a topic is excluded from auto-locking, a nondescript message would indicate this when a moderator with locking privileges views the topic on the web, mostly to prevent bug reports ("Hey, why isn't this topic being auto-locked????")

I think that will be the friendliest way to do it. It could also use a #noautolock hashtag, but I don't want to encourage hashtag pollution.

JohnF



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Sounds 100% good to me.

On Aug 19, 2020, at 5:00 PM, JohnF via groups.io <johnf1686=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here's my suggestion. If a moderator is actively unlocking a topic that follows the auto-lock rules (via the web), pop up a message indicating that the topic was locked per the rules, and does the moderator wish to exclude the topic from the rules, Yes/No? If No, then it will lock again later that evening. If Yes, it will be excluded from the auto-lock.

If this is being done by email commands, a message could be sent requesting the same answer. If the moderator doesn't respond, that's treated as a No.

If this is being done by API, there could be an optional setting to make it permanent or not as part of the request. If not specified, it defaults to No.

If a topic is excluded from auto-locking, a nondescript message would indicate this when a moderator with locking privileges views the topic on the web, mostly to prevent bug reports ("Hey, why isn't this topic being auto-locked????")

I think that will be the friendliest way to do it. It could also use a #noautolock hashtag, but I don't want to encourage hashtag pollution.

JohnF


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Here's my suggestion. If a moderator is actively unlocking a topic that follows the auto-lock rules (via the web), pop up a message indicating that the topic was locked per the rules, and does the moderator wish to exclude the topic from the rules, Yes/No? If No, then it will lock again later that evening. If Yes, it will be excluded from the auto-lock.

If this is being done by email commands, a message could be sent requesting the same answer. If the moderator doesn't respond, that's treated as a No.

If this is being done by API, there could be an optional setting to make it permanent or not as part of the request. If not specified, it defaults to No.

If a topic is excluded from auto-locking, a nondescript message would indicate this when a moderator with locking privileges views the topic on the web, mostly to prevent bug reports ("Hey, why isn't this topic being auto-locked????")

I think that will be the friendliest way to do it. It could also use a #noautolock hashtag, but I don't want to encourage hashtag pollution.

JohnF


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Another problem is that there appears to be no activity-log entry for a topic that becomes locked or moderated automatically due to group time-out. The log shows "xyx unlocked topic," and then the topic appears locked again the next day with no explanatory log entry. So at the bare minimum this is a logging - er - failure (not a bug! not a bug!;). It makes the re-locking *appear* to be a bug to moderators trying to figure out why the topic shows up locked the next day after they locked it. Having a log entry for this would at least mitigate confusion.

So to summarize, these are my suggestions, and then I'll beg out of this thread:

Best solution: provide a "Do not relock [remoderate] automatically" setting that can be applied selectively by hand to individual topics in a group with a auto-lock [auto-moderate] setting

Temporary mitigation of confusion: either disallow the unlocking [unmoderating] of automatically timed-out topics, or provide a warning/confirmation box

Long-term logging improvement: add log entries "topic automatically locked [moderated] due to group setting"
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 03:33 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I'm not sure I would call re-locking a topic a bug though.
I somehow missed this in the thread. It's inconvenient/unworkable (I'll avoid the loaded term "bug") if you want to be able to manually unlock a topic and have it stay unlocked. In other words, "resurrect" a locked topic. That is currently impossible.

I wonder how many of the people participating in this thread have actually experienced this problem. My guess is zero or very few. It is an incredible PITA when it happens to you. The system warning I suggested in the last message ("this topic has timed out and will be relocked within 24 hours, are you sure you want to unlock it") would be only a temporary fix but I think it necessary because of the current unexpected behavior. Mods who unlock a topic are left scratching their heads when it comes back locked again the next morning. Nobody, or very few, people are going to realize what happened (it took me a long time and I'm a sophisticated user). So the warning at least stops people from going through the conniptions that I did. But I think that's only a temporary fix and there really needs to be an option to manually unlocked timed-out topics. The same goes for automatic topic moderation, by the way. Everything in this thread applies to that feature as well.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Typo - “ cannot be unlocked”


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:48 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

No, I think it can legitimately be called an unlocking bug. De minimus, the system should either forbid the attempted unlocking (“this topic has timed out and cannot needs unlocked”) or provide a warning and a confirmation (“are you sure you want to unlock this topic? It has timed out per the group setting and will be relockrf automatically within 24 hours”).


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:45 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 10:30 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Call it a bug with being able to manually unlock a topic.
I wouldn't call it a bug there either.  You know as well as I do that if there were no way to unlock a topic, someone would ask for it because they'd accidentally locked the wrong topic.  Or needed to unlock an old topic that had been auto-locked, as you want to.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

No, I think it can legitimately be called an unlocking bug. De minimus, the system should either forbid the attempted unlocking (“this topic has timed out and cannot needs unlocked”) or provide a warning and a confirmation (“are you sure you want to unlock this topic? It has timed out per the group setting and will be relockrf automatically within 24 hours”).


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:45 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 10:30 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Call it a bug with being able to manually unlock a topic.
I wouldn't call it a bug there either.  You know as well as I do that if there were no way to unlock a topic, someone would ask for it because they'd accidentally locked the wrong topic.  Or needed to unlock an old topic that had been auto-locked, as you want to.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

Duane
 

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 10:30 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Call it a bug with being able to manually unlock a topic.
I wouldn't call it a bug there either.  You know as well as I do that if there were no way to unlock a topic, someone would ask for it because they'd accidentally locked the wrong topic.  Or needed to unlock an old topic that had been auto-locked, as you want to.

Duane


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

If you want to mince words and say it’s not a bug in the feature because the feature works as described (of course it does), then blame the other side. Call it a bug with being able to manually unlock a topic. 😊


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:27 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Right. The alternative, whatever you want to call it ( “never lock topic” is not bad but I’m not crazy about it - maybe “exclude from locking time-out”) could be on the More menu. I don’t care where it is on the UI or how it’s implemented (More menu is fine, if the arrow drop down, doesn’t really matter) but providing the variable is essential for the time-out feature to be actually useful.


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 09:52 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
there should be a different alternative
It sounds like what you want is another option - Never Lock Topic - on the More menu.  Maybe use the lock-open icon to differentiate from the Unlock Topic option that uses the unlock icon.

I believe the current operation is correct, not a bug, in that it operates exactly like it's supposed to - lock anything older than xx days.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Right. The alternative, whatever you want to call it ( “never lock topic” is not bad but I’m not crazy about it - maybe “exclude from locking time-out”) could be on the More menu. I don’t care where it is on the UI or how it’s implemented (More menu is fine, if the arrow drop down, doesn’t really matter) but providing the variable is essential for the time-out feature to be actually useful.


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 09:52 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
there should be a different alternative
It sounds like what you want is another option - Never Lock Topic - on the More menu.  Maybe use the lock-open icon to differentiate from the Unlock Topic option that uses the unlock icon.

I believe the current operation is correct, not a bug, in that it operates exactly like it's supposed to - lock anything older than xx days.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

Duane
 

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 09:52 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
there should be a different alternative
It sounds like what you want is another option - Never Lock Topic - on the More menu.  Maybe use the lock-open icon to differentiate from the Unlock Topic option that uses the unlock icon.

I believe the current operation is correct, not a bug, in that it operates exactly like it's supposed to - lock anything older than xx days.

Duane


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Correction - an auto-locked topic stays locked forever.


On Aug 19, 2020, at 7:52 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:


Exactly. Turning off the setting is currently the *only* way to selectively unlock timed-out topics, even just one of them, that you want to reopen later, sometimes even much later. For me, this makes the feature unusable.

Of course the behavior is @preferable” to the alternative you propose. But for the feature to be usable over the long term (at least one person in this thread is new to it and hasn’t experienced the problem), there should be a different alternative - the alternative of allowing a topic to be selectively marked as “don’t time me out - have been selected as reopened.” (If that makes that particular topic immune to auto-locking fine. The mod can relock it by hand later if so desired.)

It’s because of this bug (and I’m still calling it a bug) that I eventually had to stop using the feature altogether. And trust me: there will eventually be mods, and probably are some, perhaps many of them, who manually unlock topics and find them locked the next day, think they’re going crazy bdvsuse they remember having locked it and lock it again, etc,  and do this repeatedly before they either report a false bug (“unlocked topic came back locked”) or (less likely) figure out that it’s a locking time-out and report *that* as a bug or a suggestion (as I’ve done before, at least once), or quit using the feature. Or resign themselves to the inconvenient truth that kicked topics are locked forever.


On Aug 19, 2020, at 6:21 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does not allow a moderator to manually unlock any topic that times out. If you unlock it by day, the feature [sic] goes back in that night like a sneaky little thief and locks it again based on the timestamp. This is a serious downside, if not actually a bug (I would call it one).
J -- Go back into settings, turn it back off, and your unlocked topics will remain unlocked.

I believe this behavior is preferable to having multiple topics mysteriously fail to lock when you change the group setting, for no other reason that you manually locked/unlocked them at some time in the past. Be careful what you wish for. 

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Exactly. Turning off the setting is currently the *only* way to selectively unlock timed-out topics, even just one of them, that you want to reopen later, sometimes even much later. For me, this makes the feature unusable.

Of course the behavior is @preferable” to the alternative you propose. But for the feature to be usable over the long term (at least one person in this thread is new to it and hasn’t experienced the problem), there should be a different alternative - the alternative of allowing a topic to be selectively marked as “don’t time me out - have been selected as reopened.” (If that makes that particular topic immune to auto-locking fine. The mod can relock it by hand later if so desired.)

It’s because of this bug (and I’m still calling it a bug) that I eventually had to stop using the feature altogether. And trust me: there will eventually be mods, and probably are some, perhaps many of them, who manually unlock topics and find them locked the next day, think they’re going crazy bdvsuse they remember having locked it and lock it again, etc,  and do this repeatedly before they either report a false bug (“unlocked topic came back locked”) or (less likely) figure out that it’s a locking time-out and report *that* as a bug or a suggestion (as I’ve done before, at least once), or quit using the feature. Or resign themselves to the inconvenient truth that kicked topics are locked forever.


On Aug 19, 2020, at 6:21 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does not allow a moderator to manually unlock any topic that times out. If you unlock it by day, the feature [sic] goes back in that night like a sneaky little thief and locks it again based on the timestamp. This is a serious downside, if not actually a bug (I would call it one).
J -- Go back into settings, turn it back off, and your unlocked topics will remain unlocked.

I believe this behavior is preferable to having multiple topics mysteriously fail to lock when you change the group setting, for no other reason that you manually locked/unlocked them at some time in the past. Be careful what you wish for. 

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:21 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It does not allow a moderator to manually unlock any topic that times out. If you unlock it by day, the feature [sic] goes back in that night like a sneaky little thief and locks it again based on the timestamp. This is a serious downside, if not actually a bug (I would call it one).
J -- Go back into settings, turn it back off, and your unlocked topics will remain unlocked.

I believe this behavior is preferable to having multiple topics mysteriously fail to lock when you change the group setting, for no other reason that you manually locked/unlocked them at some time in the past. Be careful what you wish for. 

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:15 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
that setting is not applied in real time. Affected topics will be locked later, when the corresponding system job runs.
I use this feature to lock topics and it does indeed work, and works again if you unlock a topic as J says.  I'm not sure I would call re-locking a topic a bug though.

Andy


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Haha they will be locked overnight, alright. And if you decide, "oops you didn't want one or two of them locked," good luck unlocking them! They will be locked again the following night. And the following night. And the following night... You would not believe how long it took me to figure out that's what was happening when I used to manually unlock topics and find them locked again the next day lol.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Retroactive Topic Locking? #misc #suggestion

 

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned at least once in the past, the auto-lock feature is problematic. It should be *less*, not more "retroactive." It does not allow a moderator to manually unlock any topic that times out. If you unlock it by day, the feature [sic] goes back in that night like a sneaky little thief and locks it again based on the timestamp. This is a serious downside, if not actually a bug (I would call it one).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu