Date   

locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

It's kind of like, "Get lost!" and then, "Oh, hey, sorry you left!" LOL

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:
J,

> I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to
> see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than
> quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they
> left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when
> someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves.

I agree, there's a useful distinction to be made between "removed" and "left".

Probably there ought to be a separate tab for "removed", not that I can think offhand of what one might want to say (in an automatic message) to members one removes.

-- Shal






locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

J,

I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to
see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than
quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they
left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when
someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves.
I agree, there's a useful distinction to be made between "removed" and "left".

Probably there ought to be a separate tab for "removed", not that I can think offhand of what one might want to say (in an automatic message) to members one removes.

-- Shal


locked Re: AOL Members having trouble

 

Janice,

Your member said:
I don't have a spam folder on my tablet, but I do on this desktop so I
finally got to check to see if the SS digests are going to that spam
folder. They are not. I've checked my membership and see nothing
amiss, so I have no clue why I am not receiving anything.
Your member may have to look at the AOL site itself, not within the programs running on her desktop or portable devices.

Many email service providers, especially those that are primarily webmail services, quarantine junk (or spam) messages in a folder on their servers, and never deliver it to the user's desktop or mobile system. If AOL is doing this, hopefully there's a mechanism at their web site to review the quarantined messages and mark any as "not spam" if they aren't. And to whitelist (bypass spam filtering for) certain senders.

-- Shal


locked Re: How to set where the reply goes to?

 

Ronaldo,

Those would only be for your email.
What do you mean MY email?
By YOUR email I believe Duane meant the software (client or webmail) that you use to create your reply. Your "Mail User Agent", or MUA, in email protocol terminology.

There are generally three things that govern where a reply goes.

1) The content of the From:, To:, CC:, and Reply-To: fields in the original message.

2) Which user interface control you use (Reply, or Reply All).

3) The decisions made by the author of your email client/service as to how to use the information in 1 & 2.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I'm talking about when you
receive an email from groups.io that you want to reply to, you should
have an easy way of either sending it to the whole group or to the
original poster.
Understood. And that may be something an MUA could do. It could take into account the fact that a message came from an email list and give you that as an option. There are list related header fields defined for email headers, but I don't know if they're standardized enough to most MUAs to use them.

For example, your message as it arrived to me had these fields:

To: beta @ groups.io
From: "ro-esp" <ro-esp @ example.com>
Mailing-List: list beta @ groups.io; contact beta+owner @ groups.io
Reply-To: beta @ groups.io
(ignore the fact that I put spaces around the @ symbols, to prevent truncation. Also note that I substituted your email service to avoid revealing it.

The email standards require that your MUA use the Reply-To: address rather than the From: address when replying to this message.

What you want is a control that is like Reply, but which ignores the Reply-To field. Reply All might have the effect you want, except that it would put the original poster's email address in the CC field and you'd have to manually move it to the To field (and remove the group's address).

The way yahoo does it is making the creator of the group choose between
- reply to sender
- reply to group
- reply to moderators and
- reply to unsubscribe
Correct. That control sets the content of the Reply-To field in messages from the group.

Groups.io also has a Reply To setting that allows the group moderator/owner to choose the group, the sender, or the moderators as the address for replies to group messages.

I think it's perfectly possible (I'm assuming all email-software can
handle it) to give everybody who replies over email the choice between
reply-sender and reply-group, and that that should be the default.
And that's the problem. Generally speaking no email software has a feature that ignores the Reply-To field (when present) in favor of the From: field.

(There's an additional complication in the case of senders that use certain email services. Their service may attempt to block delivery of messages that go through mailing lists. Groups.io works around this by modifying the From: address for such members, and in that case it would be even more difficult for a MUA to determine the poster's email address. You can see this effect in messages posted by members with a Yahoo Mail address. The mechanism is known as DMARC, and don't get me started on it.)


-- Shal
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


locked Re: Join group flow

 

J,

signed in, unrestricted group:

1. I would make sure that the "extra" "join this group" button, which
now appears at the top left, goes away. It duplicates the "join this
group" button at the bottom.
It is supposed to. In the same way that the "Home" button duplicates the fact that you're on the home page.

The left column is populated with page links, for a non-member Home and Join are two available pages; depending on the group's settings the Messages and Wiki may appear there as well.

2. There's no reference to the subscribe by email option.
Not needed in this case. The user is logged in, and thus his/her email address is already confirmed and he/she already either set a password or used the log in by email mechanism.

signed in, restricted group:
...
1. again: I would make sure that the "extra" "join this group" button,
which now appears at the top left, goes away. It does not duplicate the
"apply for membership in this group" button at the bottom in this case,
but seems to conflict with it.
I wouldn't worry about it, they go to the same place. But if forced to label them the same for consistency's sake, I'd probably favor returning the bottom button to saying "Join This Group" rather than try to craft the idea of applying into that limited space.

I know the change of wording on the bottom button was supposed to make it clear that clicking that button is not, of itself, sufficient to Join the group. But that's ok - the Join page itself spells out what the user needs to do well enough. Taken in that view, the button's label isn't a promise of membership, but the place to start the process.

2. Again: There's no reference to the subscribe by email option.
Ditto above.

3. I don't love the term "group managers" in "has been submitted to the
group managers," but I think you can polish the language at the top
level later on, once the structure is in place. Meanwhile, just "has
been submitted" seems sufficient, without reference to whom it has been
submitted to.
I thought it worth saying that the decision is not put to Groups.io, the company, but put to that specific group's owners/moderators/managers. I agree we can wordsmith this later though.

4. The section starting with "When your membership is approved..." and
ending with "To post to this group ... " should not, in my opinion, be
sent at this juncture, but should be included with the approval email.
It is not "sent", but presented on the web page. I thought it helpful to give the user a look ahead, and to give them an opportunity to change subscription options before the flood of group messages starts pouring in (which will happen upon approval).

5. I'm not sure what is meant by "At this point the group's 'Pending
Subscription' Member Notice is sent." Does this mean the "Approval
Needed" notice is sent to the moderator?
Here I'm referring to whatever message the group may have set up for Pending Subscription, on the Member Notices tab of the group's Settings page.

At that same time the Approval Needed notice has been sent to the group's moderators/owners (that was mentioned to the user at point 3, above).

Also, I'm not sure what is meant by "It could also be shown on this
page." Huh?
The pre-existing Join flow shows the group's "Pending Subscription" message on a page after clicking "Join this Group" on a restricted group. That was a requested feature, and I felt it worth keeping.

not signed in, unrestricted group:
...
2. In "An email has been sent to you with a link to log into your
account and confirm your email address…" I would use, instead of the
Subject "Link to log into Groups,ioo." something that uses the word
"confirm".
That might use some wordsmithing, of either the page text or the message, or both. I took the subject line from the existing message that is sent, just to make it clear this is the same mechanism.

3. I think the entire section beginning "If you don't want to log in to
Groups.io..." and ending "To post to the group..." would be better
includeed with the confirmation email rather than here.
I think it should be in both places.

People tend to absorb information better with repetition. Remember how your grade-school teacher taught you to structure a short essay: Tell the reader what you're going to say (introduction), then say it (body), then tell the reader what you said (conclusion).

not signed in, restricted group:
...
2. ... Same comments regarding approval. Tell them how to post to the
group *in the approval email*, not in an email prior to it.
I'm talking about information presented on, and the mechanism of, the Join (and subsequent) web pages.

That said, the info about how to post in the group is already in the template "Welcome" message, so as long as the group managers keep that much of it we're good.

For what it is worth, it is also in the boilerplate of the "You have been added to ..." email sent to people who are Direct Add'ed to a group.


-- Shal


locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

If it's permanent removal, maybe it should not be undoable. If you don't intend the removal to be permanent, you can simply remove. Is the logic behind allowing 'unbanning' that you might have done it in error? Isn't there a confirmation dialogue ('are you sure?')? If there is, I don't see the reason for allowing unbanning in the first place. But yes, that's alarming that they're reinstated into the group.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 21, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Ro <recarlton@...> wrote:

A caution about banning.   If you then UNBAN someone, it automatically adds them back to the group.   I think this needs to be fixed.  Banning should remove permanently AND ban.  


Ro

with Sally and Silk waiting at their feed dishes, and Handy, Feliz &  Police Kitty patrolling in the Great Beyond.





From: j.olivia.catlady@...
Subject: Re: [beta] "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:28:36 -0800
To: beta@groups.io

I understand the difference between banning and removal. I'm just questioning the desirability of sending a 'sorry to see you go' message to someone who was removed. (I only brought up banning because I wondered what notice was sent out for thst. I see now there's a separate one.)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:08 PM, Me and BobbieSue <sylvester2007dc@...> wrote:

My understanding is that when you ‘remove’ a member from the group they will still be allowed to ‘apply’ for subscription to the group at a later date.

When you ‘ban’ a member, my understanding is that the member will be prevented from ‘applying’ for subscription to the group or at least go to la la land and the owner will not see it.

My ‘Goodbye’ Notice is also customized………….could be if I removed the member……….I might allow them back at a later date…….I have done this before on yahoo and they would email me and they would let me know that they would not repeat what ever it was they had done to be removed.  When I ban someone, they don’t need to come back!!!

Maybe Mark could confirm if I am on target………….


Diane
 
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach




On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:51 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I've been doing some testing tonight to see what happens with member notices (in particular, the pending notice). In the process of doing that I removed a test member in order to have him apply for membership again. I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves. (I wonder if it's send out after someone is banned? I haven't test that.)
J


locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

Ro
 

A caution about banning.   If you then UNBAN someone, it automatically adds them back to the group.   I think this needs to be fixed.  Banning should remove permanently AND ban.  


Ro

with Sally and Silk waiting at their feed dishes, and Handy, Feliz &  Police Kitty patrolling in the Great Beyond.





From: j.olivia.catlady@...
Subject: Re: [beta] "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:28:36 -0800
To: beta@groups.io

I understand the difference between banning and removal. I'm just questioning the desirability of sending a 'sorry to see you go' message to someone who was removed. (I only brought up banning because I wondered what notice was sent out for thst. I see now there's a separate one.)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:08 PM, Me and BobbieSue <sylvester2007dc@...> wrote:

My understanding is that when you ‘remove’ a member from the group they will still be allowed to ‘apply’ for subscription to the group at a later date.

When you ‘ban’ a member, my understanding is that the member will be prevented from ‘applying’ for subscription to the group or at least go to la la land and the owner will not see it.

My ‘Goodbye’ Notice is also customized………….could be if I removed the member……….I might allow them back at a later date…….I have done this before on yahoo and they would email me and they would let me know that they would not repeat what ever it was they had done to be removed.  When I ban someone, they don’t need to come back!!!

Maybe Mark could confirm if I am on target………….


Diane
 
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach




On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:51 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I've been doing some testing tonight to see what happens with member notices (in particular, the pending notice). In the process of doing that I removed a test member in order to have him apply for membership again. I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves. (I wonder if it's send out after someone is banned? I haven't test that.)
J


locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

I understand the difference between banning and removal. I'm just questioning the desirability of sending a 'sorry to see you go' message to someone who was removed. (I only brought up banning because I wondered what notice was sent out for thst. I see now there's a separate one.)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:08 PM, Me and BobbieSue <sylvester2007dc@...> wrote:

My understanding is that when you ‘remove’ a member from the group they will still be allowed to ‘apply’ for subscription to the group at a later date.

When you ‘ban’ a member, my understanding is that the member will be prevented from ‘applying’ for subscription to the group or at least go to la la land and the owner will not see it.

My ‘Goodbye’ Notice is also customized………….could be if I removed the member……….I might allow them back at a later date…….I have done this before on yahoo and they would email me and they would let me know that they would not repeat what ever it was they had done to be removed.  When I ban someone, they don’t need to come back!!!

Maybe Mark could confirm if I am on target………….


Diane
 
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach




On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:51 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I've been doing some testing tonight to see what happens with member notices (in particular, the pending notice). In the process of doing that I removed a test member in order to have him apply for membership again. I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves. (I wonder if it's send out after someone is banned? I haven't test that.)

J



locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

Sylvester 2007DC <sylvester2007dc@...>
 

My understanding is that when you ‘remove’ a member from the group they will still be allowed to ‘apply’ for subscription to the group at a later date.

When you ‘ban’ a member, my understanding is that the member will be prevented from ‘applying’ for subscription to the group or at least go to la la land and the owner will not see it.

My ‘Goodbye’ Notice is also customized………….could be if I removed the member……….I might allow them back at a later date…….I have done this before on yahoo and they would email me and they would let me know that they would not repeat what ever it was they had done to be removed.  When I ban someone, they don’t need to come back!!!

Maybe Mark could confirm if I am on target………….


Diane
 
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach




On Jan 21, 2016, at 9:51 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I've been doing some testing tonight to see what happens with member notices (in particular, the pending notice). In the process of doing that I removed a test member in order to have him apply for membership again. I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves. (I wonder if it's send out after someone is banned? I haven't test that.)

J



locked Re: "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

Oops, I guess the "banned" notice is sent for banned members. Removed members seem to be somewhere in between.

J


locked "sorry to see you go" message - don't sent if member was removed by mod #suggestion

 

I've been doing some testing tonight to see what happens with member notices (in particular, the pending notice). In the process of doing that I removed a test member in order to have him apply for membership again. I noticed that after being removed, the member receives the "sorry to see you go" email. That seems odd if the member is removed rather than quits the group voluntarily. (Our message was customized, asks why they left, etc.) I think it might be better not to send that one out when someone is removed, rather than when they remove themselves. (I wonder if it's send out after someone is banned? I haven't test that.)

J


locked Re: AOL Members having trouble

 

 I hope this is not hijacking the thread, but I didn't know about "email delivery history" and am wondering: should the pending member notification show up in the email delivery history of a pending member? In general should member notifications show up there? Still trying to figure out why we are rarely getting a response to the pending member questionnaire. Thanks.

J


locked Re: AOL Members having trouble

 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 4:04 PM, weebeequilting <weebee.1@...> wrote:

I have a member who is all signed up and confirmed--set for Daily Digest.  She is not getting her emails but is able to read online.  I told her to check her SPAM folder.  She uses AOL for her email and I know Yahoo sometimes had problems with AOL blocking mail.  Any ideas?

First thing would be to see if we're seeing any errors delivering emails to her. To do that, click on her email in the Members page. Then, click the 'Email Delivery History' at the top. Let me know if there are any errors reported there.

Thanks,
Mark 


locked Re: Invite flow

Linda
 
Edited

Hi Mark,
You wrote:
If you have questions about this invitation, send them to
{{Group.Name}}+owner@groups.io.
 
Some of us have chosen not to receive All Owner Emails:

(Subscription)
Owner Email
All Emails
Receive every message that is sent to {{Group.Name}}+owner@groups.io.
Subscribers Only
Receive only messages sent by subscribers.
None
Receive no messages sent to {{Group.Name}}+owner@groups.io.
In which case, the solution would be as you said:
 "It occurs to me that I could forward any responses to the invite email to the moderators." 
 
Or as Shal said:
There could be an option on the Invite page for whether replies should be directed to the moderator, the + owner address, or neither. Or that could be made a separate checkbox in each moderator's Subscription (to receive Invite replies)."

Personally, I’m clutter intolerant.  My groups are unrestricted.  Anyone with questions can join and can write to the +owner address once they’ve become a member.
 
Linda


locked Re: AOL Members having trouble

Sylvester 2007DC <sylvester2007dc@...>
 

In the beginning I was not receiving any owner notification emails.

I signed on to my hotmail account through hotmail.com and found loads of stuff that was being put in my junk folder there.

I am running a MAC platform, IPAD, IPhone & IWatch…………dang all those ring at the same time……….it’s crazy………

I moved them all of of the Junk folder on hotmail website.  Today, I went back to the hotmail.com website and went to:

Preventing junk email

I clicked on the Safe and blocked senders and entered groups.io, I am hoping this stops the emails from going to the junk folder.

My Apple devices and email will not detect in it’s Junk folder all the stuff that I found on the hotmail.com website………..grrrrrrr……not sure why that is!!!!  Guess I will have to contact Apple and find out why………………

My mother has AOL and she is always having terrible problems with AOL stopping almost everything……….I keep trying to get her to change…………

Junk Folder on IPad:
click on your email icon
Very Top Left-you may have an   <   and the name of the mailbox that you are currently in.
click on the    <    and go back until you see  All inboxes
below your inboxes you will see ACCOUNTS
click on your ICloud account
You should see your Junk folder for your ICLoud - this is where I find my junk mail if I have any.



HTH,


Diane
 
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach




On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:04 PM, weebeequilting <weebee.1@...> wrote:

I have a member who is all signed up and confirmed--set for Daily Digest.  She is not getting her emails but is able to read online.  I told her to check her SPAM folder.  She uses AOL for her email and I know Yahoo sometimes had problems with AOL blocking mail.  Any ideas? Here is the latest communication from her:

Just a heads up, Janice, 

I don't have a spam folder on my tablet, but I do on this desktop so I finally got to check to see if the SS digests are going to that spam folder.  They are not.  I've checked my membership and see nothing amiss, so I have no clue why I am not receiving anything.

 Maybe the creators of the new program would have an idea ???

 Been reading it online but prefer digests.


Thanks for any help.


Janice B

AZ



locked Re: issue with bcc's from owner-sent emails? etc.

 

p.s. One member just responded to my owner-generated email that she did not receive the questionnaire. So at least the email is getting through. And then immediately afterwards, she sent back the questionnaire. LOL. 


locked AOL Members having trouble

weebeequilting <weebee.1@...>
 

I have a member who is all signed up and confirmed--set for Daily Digest.  She is not getting her emails but is able to read online.  I told her to check her SPAM folder.  She uses AOL for her email and I know Yahoo sometimes had problems with AOL blocking mail.  Any ideas? Here is the latest communication from her:

Just a heads up, Janice, 

I don't have a spam folder on my tablet, but I do on this desktop so I finally got to check to see if the SS digests are going to that spam folder.  They are not.  I've checked my membership and see nothing amiss, so I have no clue why I am not receiving anything.

 Maybe the creators of the new program would have an idea ???

 Been reading it online but prefer digests.


Thanks for any help.


Janice B

AZ


locked issue with bcc's from owner-sent emails? etc.

 

I am getting a phishing warning ("this may not have been sent by so-and-so, report phishing?") on the bcc's from my owner-sent emails to members or pending members. I wonder if the member is perhaps receiving the same warning.

Also, we have a short questionnaire sent (or supposedly sent?) to pending members, the answers to which are required to approve membership, and so far not one pending member has returned the questionnaire. I've started to email them offlist, as the group owner, to see if they even received it, but am wondering whether even THAT email is reaching them.

The problems could be coming from (1) did they receive the "pending member" notice? and/or (2) are they receiving the owner-generated emails ASKING them whether they received it? Nobody has even responded to THAT - maybe it looks like a phish to them, or they did not get it?) or who knows what.

I now have three pending members and the list is growing. None of them have returned or responded to anything. Just wondering what's up. I'm about to start emailing people completely outside of Groups.io, from another email address, just to try to see what's going on. I'm even tempted to make the group unrestricted, because nobody is getting in this way recently.

J


locked Re: How to set where the reply goes to?

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 05:27 pm, Duane <txpigeon@gmail.com> wrote:


Those would only be for your email.
What do you mean MY email?

They're predefined in the program and I don't believe there's a way to change them.
Which program?

When an email is From and To only one person, the buttons act the same. If it were sent with multiple To
addresses, then Reply All would send your reply to all of them, as well as the From.
I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I'm talking about when you receive an email from groups.io that you want to reply to, you should have an easy way of either sending it to the whole group or to the original poster.

The way yahoo does it is making the creator of the group choose between
- reply to sender
- reply to group
- reply to moderators and
- reply to unsubscribe

I think it's perfectly possible (I'm assuming all email-software can handle it) to give everybody who replies over email the choice between reply-sender and reply-group, and that that should be the default. People replying from the webpages already have that choice.

groetjes, Ronaldo


locked Re: Invite flow

David P. Dillard
 

This is a frequent happening on Listserv lists. People send subscribe and other command messages to the discussion group members rather than to the address for commands, which is a general address for all lists on the Listserv. It is also ironic that a message requesting a subscription that reaches the members could only come from a member who is already subscribed.



Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@temple.edu

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016, Shal Farley wrote:

Mark,

It occurs to me that I could forward on any responses to the invite
email to the moderators. That would avoid the issue of people
responding to the email with questions.
Ah, I like this idea.

It reminds me that a valued contributor to my GMF Yahoo Group often suggests (when a person is having problems with -subscribe or an Invitation) that the moderator instruct the person to CC their -subscribe command or Invite reply to the moderator's personal email address.

She observes that many problem with -subscribe seem to result from sending the request to the wrong address. And many problems with Invite seem to result from not receiving the invitation or not replying to the it. In either case, if the moderator gets a CC that's information which can help resolve the issue (likewise if the moderator doesn't).

But you could end up with a bunch of emails
saying "YES" or "Confirm" or even just empty.
True. While I'm generally clutter-tolerant (I have all Facebook notifications turned on) I can see where that may not be welcomed by some moderators.

There could be an option on the Invite page for whether replies should be directed to the moderator, the + owner address, or neither. Or that could be made a separate checkbox in each moderator's Subscription (to receive Invite replies).

-- Shal