Date   

locked Re: Join group flow

 

J,

p.s. One thing that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy about the whole
login/join process, and has given me the willies from square one, is
this propensity of the system to log me in on my behalf - rather than
giving me a set or reset password link and requiring me to enter it.
This happens from the "one-shot" login (sans password) from the invite
and/or join, and now this. I'm like, What? I'm logged in? I didn't even
enter a password.
Yup. Not to be trite, but passwords are passé.

Groups.io still supports them so that you can use one if you prefer. I probably still will, just because I'm an old dog and set in my ways.

(And then I can't log in the next time, which is also strange.)
With the new mechanism, the next time you aren't logged in is 30 days away (at least, for a given device/browser). Unless maybe you've got security settings that evict site cookies at the end of each session. Not sure about that one.

If you've forgotten your password, use the log in by email method to log in, then go to your Profile and set a new password. Simple.

I would love to see this go away entirely. Perhaps there's a way it can
be phased out. It just gives me a creepy feeling.
Nope - it is just now being phased in. Give it time to gel a little before you judge it.

-- Shal


locked Re: text re "join group," "apply for membership in this group," "subscribe to this group" - redux

 

ber,

 Yes, basically, it would be a hybrid or mixed-mode group – I don't know
 hoow to call it, maybe "restricted self-enrolment" because only the
 correct invitation code (automagically) allows/accepts the member into
 the group. No invite-code => no joining.

I don't think it needs a new name. I still would think of it as a group with restricted membership. Your idea just provides an alternative form of invitation.

 Therefore, maybe, to simplify the process, the "Apply for membership"
 click/step/page should not be needed/presented, only offering the next
 step as a landing page, i.e.:

 */g/GROUPNAME/enrol

Yes, you the group owner could pass out a page past the home page, but I think that would still be the /join page (with the addition of the place to enter an "Invitation code").

 Yes, enrolment in a course/class would be the nearest analogy I could
 think of for my use case. If it only were as simple as that!

use Direct Add.

Thanks, I am aware of that feature, but unfortunately it's not an option for the problem(s) the presented idea should solve, with following goals/guidelines for the administration of the group in mind:
  1. Reduce administrative effort
  2. Don't pamper members, "empower" them with self-management
Yes, I can see where a teacher or other authority would prefer to put the onus on the would-be member to do the work. The roles are a bit reversed in a volunteer organization (like the PTA) where the volunteers are expected to be providing a service to the members.

  1. Minimize risk of errors in subscription process (which result in excluded/uninformed/unhappy members)
Its my experience that putting the burden on the members to sign up doesn't generally minimize those risks. But then I'm not often in the position of being able to motivate them with the threat of a failing grade.

Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that different circumstances can dictate different methods of administration.

  1. Make it fast, easy to access and interact with — keep it smmall and simple
We certainly agree on that one.

So far I've been supremely happy with Groups.io in that regard.

I (membership VP) add the members,
I and the PTA unit president send messages,
The members get the messages.

No muss, no fuss (except when I can't read the member's handwriting on the sign-up form).

-- Shal


locked Re: Join group flow

 

Mark,

Should I add an unchecked checkbox to join the updates@ group when
entering your email address?
Meh.

I do generally prefer opt-ins to opt-outs, but I have a hard time getting worked up about having updates@ remaining an automatic membership. And it makes a handy place to get an approximation of Groups.io's total user base.

Play with it and let me know what you think. Thanks for all your help,
this is definitely an upgrade.
Whee!

-- Shal


locked Re: Join group flow

 

Because Mark fixed it right away.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 22, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Mark,

J_catlady said,

 I like the looks of it. However, I tried to join a restricted group from
 being unlogged in. I found the group, entered a valid email address, and
 clicked on "confirm email address." The box came back empty and circled
 in red, ...

You answered,

 Ah, good catch. It should have displayed an error message. I've fixed
 it.

I just tried the same test with an email address that is already registered, and got the error message and link that weren't there for J.

But...

1) A minor nit, but maybe don't clear the address - now I can't tell what it was I tried. And instead maybe take the error away as soon as I edit in that field again?

2) An idea, instead of making it an error, why not just send the email to log in?

That is, rather than derailing the user's train of thought with an error message, you could send him the same email he would get by clicking "log in" then "email me a link to log in".

The text on the /joined page could be modified accordingly. In particular it could contain the information that the user's email address is already registered, and the link to log in, but most of the rest of the page would still be appropriate:

-----
Your email address is already registered. An email has been sent to you
with a link to log into your account. Look for a message from Groups.io
with the Subject: "Link to log into Groups.io". Or, you may log in using
a password, Facebook or Gmail.

When you log in your request for membership will be sent to the group
management. The group may send you information about the group, it may
also request that you provide additional information before accepting
your membership.

Here is some information that may be helpful when you have logged in and
your membership has been approved: To change your delivery and subscription options, click the Subscription
Options bar below.
-----

My thought is that by presenting this as a normal flow, rather than an error, you make the site friendlier and easier to use. It also serves as a subtle encouragement to use the email log in mechanism, perhaps.

Also...

When entering a non-registered address I notice that the address is made a pending member, and the moderators notified of the pending membership, even before the email address is confirmed. Contrary to what is said on the /joined page: "When you confirm..."

I had avoided that in my description, perhaps needlessly. This does seem even simpler, and "NC" status is something the site already handles, so why not?

My thinking was that there's a potential problem with black-hats flooding a group with pending memberships simply by generating fake addresses, or feeding in a list of addresses that are legit, but which they don't own. I'm not sure what mischief might ensue, but if the group's Pending Subscription message is also sent to a NC address that could become a portal for spam.

That's the same motive for making them log in before making their membership pending, in the alternative flow.

I suppose I may be over-thinking this, or borrowing trouble, both activities I normally warn against.

-- Shal


locked Re: Join group flow

 

Mark,

J_catlady said,

 I like the looks of it. However, I tried to join a restricted group from
 being unlogged in. I found the group, entered a valid email address, and
 clicked on "confirm email address." The box came back empty and circled
 in red, ...

You answered,

 Ah, good catch. It should have displayed an error message. I've fixed
 it.

I just tried the same test with an email address that is already registered, and got the error message and link that weren't there for J.

But...

1) A minor nit, but maybe don't clear the address - now I can't tell what it was I tried. And instead maybe take the error away as soon as I edit in that field again?

2) An idea, instead of making it an error, why not just send the email to log in?

That is, rather than derailing the user's train of thought with an error message, you could send him the same email he would get by clicking "log in" then "email me a link to log in".

The text on the /joined page could be modified accordingly. In particular it could contain the information that the user's email address is already registered, and the link to log in, but most of the rest of the page would still be appropriate:

-----
Your email address is already registered. An email has been sent to you
with a link to log into your account. Look for a message from Groups.io
with the Subject: "Link to log into Groups.io". Or, you may log in using
a password, Facebook or Gmail.

When you log in your request for membership will be sent to the group
management. The group may send you information about the group, it may
also request that you provide additional information before accepting
your membership.

Here is some information that may be helpful when you have logged in and
your membership has been approved:
  • All messages posted in this group will be sent to you at user@....
  • To post to the group, send an email to shalstest@groups.io or visit the Post page.
To change your delivery and subscription options, click the Subscription
Options bar below.
-----

My thought is that by presenting this as a normal flow, rather than an error, you make the site friendlier and easier to use. It also serves as a subtle encouragement to use the email log in mechanism, perhaps.

Also...

When entering a non-registered address I notice that the address is made a pending member, and the moderators notified of the pending membership, even before the email address is confirmed. Contrary to what is said on the /joined page: "When you confirm..."

I had avoided that in my description, perhaps needlessly. This does seem even simpler, and "NC" status is something the site already handles, so why not?

My thinking was that there's a potential problem with black-hats flooding a group with pending memberships simply by generating fake addresses, or feeding in a list of addresses that are legit, but which they don't own. I'm not sure what mischief might ensue, but if the group's Pending Subscription message is also sent to a NC address that could become a portal for spam.

That's the same motive for making them log in before making their membership pending, in the alternative flow.

I suppose I may be over-thinking this, or borrowing trouble, both activities I normally warn against.

-- Shal


locked Assigning ownership of a file or photo to someone else

 

I've encountered a situation in a Y! group I'm planning on moving. A member uploaded a bunch of large photos. (There were something like 17 and they all exceeded 6Mb.) They're useful images and most everyone in the group would enjoy them. Unfortunately, this member uploaded them into Files instead of Photos and they're not in a folder. I created a folder in Photos for him and asked him to move them. Another good Samaritan moved them for him. So the images are in the right place, but the ownership of those images is changed. I can see this happening again after moving the group and transferring images, so I have the following question:

Could we have a way for a moderator in groups.io to have permission to move files without taking ownership of them? Alternately, could there be a way to assign ownership to someone else for files the system sees as yours?? I can see where one of these options would be very useful for moderators just doing some housecleaning and organizing. And of course, moderators would continue to have the ability to delete or modify all files.

Dano


locked Re: Invitations to a group.

 

dg,

Which prompted that bit - I had just had to request a
confirmation from somewhere *three* times before they
all showed up - in reverse order - leaving even me
wondering which one was the current active/valid one!
If Groups.io, I'd guess the one with the latest expiration date/time. Otherwise, guess the one with the latest Date field (if you can coax your email system to show you the time to the second).

-- Shal


locked Re: Phishing warnings

 

Have a great weekend! And not to get greedy, but when you get back, is there any way to make the phish an optional setting? My owner messages are coming out with big, colorful phish warnings from gmail, and I'm afraid they're scaring off members who may discard them because of that.

J


locked Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site the last two days:

  • NEW: Completely revamped the Join Group flow.
  • CHANGE: Increased login link email expire timeout to 30 minutes.
  • BUGFIX: After replying to a post on the website, go back to where you were before.
  • CHANGE: After Posting on the website, go to the group archives.
  • BUGFIX: Fixed dialogs for screen readers.
  • CHANGES: Various text tweaks with invites and elsewhere.
  • CHANGE: All member notices are now sent from groupname+owner@groups.io.
  • BUGFIX: When using 'Insert Quoted Message' in the HTML widget, we weren't properly escaping the <> around the email address in the reply.

Have a good weekend, everybody!

Mark


locked Re: Bouncing Members

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:03 PM, weebeequilting <weebee.1@...> wrote:

I currently have 69 bouncing members.  How will I know when the deadwood has been culled?  I understand that after so many attempts, hard bouncing members are automatically unsubscribed.  Is there some way columns could be added that would keep track of attempts to unbounce--maybe how many chances left for that person.  I'm just thinking more information about their status other than just "bouncing" would be helpful.

When we first launched, we would automatically unsubscribe people if they were still bouncing after our bounce probe process completed. I switched that so instead, they're kept as subscribers, but marked with a red B that says Bounced instead of Bouncing. 

The data we track during the bounce probe process is number of probes sent and the date of the last probe. I could display that in their subscription page, I suppose, if you think that'd be helpful.

Mark


locked Re: Join group flow

 

LMAO. The thing is, until passwords are mostly gone, people are expecting them. And I agree with ditching passwords but I thought the alternative was going to be something physiological. And then you start thinking, "Well, but I can never *change* my fingerprint" etc. So I'm on the fence about it. I'll take it for another spin tomorrow.;)

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:03 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 1:47 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
By the way, the system did not take me back to the "apply for membership" page I was on. It just logged me in and took me to my list of groups.

Bug. Fixed. :-)

Personally, I'd like a world where passwords don't exist at all. And we (the royal We of the Internet, although Mark does like to refer to himself in the third person, which annoys his wife and everyone else around him to no end) are moving in that direction. First with the federated logins of Facebook/Google/etc. And with services that email you links to log in (we're not the first to do that).

I thought by getting rid of the Forgot my password/didn't have a password/reset my password system and replacing it with the Email me a log in link, the service would be easier to use and understand, with no loss of functionality. If you want a password, you can have one. If you forgot your password, or want to change it, no problem either. You could already log in using Facebook or Google without entering your password.

Is Mark wrong? He doesn't like to admit it, but it does happen... sometimes.


Thanks,
Mark



locked Re: Join group flow

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 1:47 PM, J_catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
By the way, the system did not take me back to the "apply for membership" page I was on. It just logged me in and took me to my list of groups.

Bug. Fixed. :-)

Personally, I'd like a world where passwords don't exist at all. And we (the royal We of the Internet, although Mark does like to refer to himself in the third person, which annoys his wife and everyone else around him to no end) are moving in that direction. First with the federated logins of Facebook/Google/etc. And with services that email you links to log in (we're not the first to do that).

I thought by getting rid of the Forgot my password/didn't have a password/reset my password system and replacing it with the Email me a log in link, the service would be easier to use and understand, with no loss of functionality. If you want a password, you can have one. If you forgot your password, or want to change it, no problem either. You could already log in using Facebook or Google without entering your password.

Is Mark wrong? He doesn't like to admit it, but it does happen... sometimes.


Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Invitations to a group.

 

On 1/22/2016 7:16 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
And if you do miss it no harm done - just request another.
Which prompted that bit - I had just had to request a
confirmation from somewhere *three* times before they
all showed up - in reverse order - leaving even me
wondering which one was the current active/valid one!

For the rest - you are more attuned to this than I am,
so if that works for all, works for me!

dg


locked Re: Invitations to a group.

 

dg,

* By hitting reply to this message, you will be (enrolled,
maybe?) in the group <XXX> as an email-only member, and
will get individual messages sent to this email address.
Correct.

I see no reason to avoid the word "subscribed to". It is less clumsy than "joined to" or "made a member of" in that context.

* By <click here> you will be taken to a page on the Groups.io
site where you can set up a Groups.io userID and password/log
in
"... where you be logged in to the site and subscribed to the group.

While there you can access the group's web resources, and if you like,
create or update your profile and/or password (neither is mandatory)."

Note that in Groups.io your email address serves as your userID - there is no separate ID to create.

if you already have a Groups.io user and password,
and then use the <join?> button to accept this invitation.
There doesn't need to be a second button for this case. We don't even need to say anything about whether the member has a password - everything works just the same.

* By ignoring this message, you will not be enrolled in group
<XXX>. If you already have a Groups.io ID and Password or
create one at a later date, you can request membership later.
I think I like the existing wording better:

"If you are not interested, or if user@example.com is not your email
address, please ignore this email."

* If you want to see what other groups are available, you can
go to <groups.io link> and browse the groups. To access any
web features, you will need to create and use your Groups.io
user and password.
(no harm advertising that it's not just a simple MailMan single
list option)
While I appreciate the idea of promoting Groups.io as a broader service, I'm not sure most group owners would want to distract their invitee with the prospect of looking for other groups.

And, as earlier, there's no ID, and no requirement to create a password. The new log in by email mechanism makes setting a password completely optional.

BTW - I don't like the timeout 15 minutes thing - whatever that
was for - mail sometimes doesn't get to me in 15 minutes, and
a lot of us don't hang around waiting for something to show up
in email.
The message won't be sent unless you just took some action on the web page to trigger it. So in this case you'll be waiting for the message so that you can complete your membership or access your group.

And if you do miss it no harm done - just request another.

-- Shal


locked Bouncing Members

weebeequilting <weebee.1@...>
 

I currently have 69 bouncing members.  How will I know when the deadwood has been culled?  I understand that after so many attempts, hard bouncing members are automatically unsubscribed.  Is there some way columns could be added that would keep track of attempts to unbounce--maybe how many chances left for that person.  I'm just thinking more information about their status other than just "bouncing" would be helpful.


Janice B

AZ


locked Re: New - Can Archives Be Edited?

David P. Dillard
 

If you go to the bottom of each message, you will find a "delete" text link that will get rid of unwanted messages when used on each


I hope this helps.


Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@temple.edu
http://workface.com/e/daviddillard

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016, Marcy Heathman wrote:

Howdy - new and excited about the possibilities. 
Before I get into some extensive testing, is it possible to remove the early, "test" messages being sent, or will they be
available forever more? It makes a difference what folks see when they arrive to poke around! 
Thanks!


locked Where is The Google Drive Integration

Armando <braille.bt4753@...>
 

Hi. Do you know where the Google Drive integration is? I looked on the Integration's page, and it is not on the page. Where is it?

-- Armando: Admin/owner of the BrailleNote And Technology List
To subscribe to the list, send a blank email to bnoteandtechnology+subscribe@groups.io
You can talk about the BrailleNote Apex and anything technology.


locked Never mind

Armando <braille.bt4753@...>
 

Never mind. I found the Google Drive. It was in the member subscription area.
Thanks.

-- Armando: Admin/owner of the BrailleNote And Technology List
To subscribe to the list, send a blank email to bnoteandtechnology+subscribe@groups.io
You can talk about the BrailleNote Apex and anything technology.


locked Updates to Trello

Beta Integration <beta@...>
 

[Beta] New card "For restricted groups, an optional password that lets people join without approval." was added to list "Member Management".


[Beta] The yellow label "Member Management" was added to the card "For restricted groups, an optional password that lets people join without approval.".


[Beta] The description of card "For restricted groups, an optional password that lets people join without approval." was changed to:

So, this password would have one effect of an Invitation: automatically approving the person's membership. It couldn't, or shouldn't (I think) have the other effect of accepting an invitation: to confirm the person's email address.

I think in the Join group flow for a restricted group, after the user clicks the Apply For Membership In This Group" button, if the group has set up such an "invitation code", there could be a place for the user to enter the code, or click on something to allow them to enter the code. If entered and correct, then the flow becomes, for them, like an unrestricted group:

Case 1, if they're signed in, they can be taken to the "Congratulations" page.

Case 2, if they're not signed in, they would still need to enter their email address and click "Confirm Email Address". But after that it could go to a confirmation page that reads as for an unrestricted group.


[Beta] New card "Group option to disallow No Mail subscriptions." was added to list "Features".


[Beta] The lime label "Features" was added to the card "Group option to disallow No Mail subscriptions.".


locked Updates to Trello

Beta Integration <beta@...>
 

[Beta] New card "When sending invites, have option to specify that replies to invites are forwarded to the moderator." was added to list "Invitations".


[Beta] The pink label "Invitations" was added to the card "When sending invites, have option to specify that replies to invites are forwarded to the moderator.".


[Beta] The description of card "When sending invites, have option to specify that replies to invites are forwarded to the moderator." was changed to:

There could be an option on the Invite page for whether replies should be directed to the moderator, the + owner address, or neither. Or that could be made a separate checkbox in each moderator's Subscription (to receive Invite replies).