Date   

locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mark Murphy
 

In some ideal world (where life is always fair), each group owner or member would pay exactly what it costs Mark to provide the service to them, plus a "fair" profit. In some other world, they might just pay Mark what they think is fair, based on their ability to pay, profit/non-profit status, worthiness of their cause, etc. I think several commenters have proposed versions of these scenarios.
 
But no business in the real world operates very long that way. I trust that Mark has developed a business and pricing model that can sustain his business and provide a good service to his customers.

The fact that this topic has continued over 270 messages is evidence that Mark is inclined to listen to his customers. However, I respectfully suggest that discussion of how group owners and members might financially support the costs of their groups move to GMF or some other group.
 
Happy New Year!


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

I totally get what you’re saying you’re seeing, but I have a mod with zero privileges - none - who still sees the panel when logged in. Which was why I said “any subset.” I’ll double check, as I said. I may not be fully caffeinated yet...


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:52 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 02:42 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect.
That maybe the case. However your original assertion was that "Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc" and that is not the case as I see it because if they don't have 'Set Moderator Privileges' they cannot change the notifications they receive as they don't see the panel where those options can be set.

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 02:42 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect.
That maybe the case. However your original assertion was that "Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc" and that is not the case as I see it because if they don't have 'Set Moderator Privileges' they cannot change the notifications they receive as they don't see the panel where those options can be set.

Regards
Andy


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

(typo - “set moderator privileges,” not “set moderator options”)


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:42 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect. We would expect notifications to be available corresponding to privileges, regardless of “set moderator privikeges” - e.g., mod with “approve pending member” privileges can opt to receive pending member notifications, mod with “approved pending message” messages analogous, etc. I don’t see what “set moderator options” has, it should have, anything to do with this.??? So I am perplexed. In any case I’ll run my tests again. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:34 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

ps I have to say, what you saw also sounds like not what we want or would expect. We would expect notifications to be available corresponding to privileges, regardless of “set moderator privikeges” - e.g., mod with “approve pending member” privileges can opt to receive pending member notifications, mod with “approved pending message” messages analogous, etc. I don’t see what “set moderator options” has, it should have, anything to do with this.??? So I am perplexed. In any case I’ll run my tests again. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 6:34 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

Ok, thsnks, that’s weird. I’ll do it again and see what happens. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:53 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Jeremy H
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 12:16 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 12:12 PM, Jeremy H wrote:
It is a very basic IT/DataProcessing concept that it's all based on bits - storing, changing, copying them - and it's those that drive the costs and benefits of internet/web services - and those are generated - by individual bits - in picocents: but add up to megabucks: and how you charge and account for them, at an additional cost of kilobucks (or less) rather than (unafforadable) gigabucks that is the great business problem of the industry.
To put it another way, large - scale over - quoting ratchets up (in this case) Groups.io's costs, or have misunderstood? 

Chris
I think you misunderstand. Groups.io costs (and the the benefits it provides) are based on very small units, with very small prices, but these build up - bits to bytes to words to posts to topics to groups to the whole Groups.io 'system' - and the price similarly mounts up to large. The problem is how you divide up, account for and pay/be paid that large amount (based on very many small amounts) without the accounts function overwhelming the rest of the business. Without knowing, Mark's answer seems essentially to be 'crudely' - his proposed pricing structure is by group, by number of members. Which keeps the accounting and invoicing fairly simple (hence cheap). He could be counting bytes stored and transmitted for each  group, to give a price better matched to each group's costs -  but that would cost him more money (which he doesn't think worth it)

And every other business has essentially the same issue.

Jeremy

(Apologies - while I drafted this yesterday, didn't actually manage to send it then)


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi J,

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:35 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.
From my Owner account, I removed 'Set Moderator Privileges' from my Mod account. I then logged in with my Mod account and the Moderator Notifications panel was no longer accessible/visible in the membership record.  From my Owner account, I checked 'Set Moderator Privileges' again and the Moderator Notifications panel was then visible/accessible again from my Mod account membership record,

Regards
Andy


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

Actually, never one to believe what someone else tells me without proof, I just logged into a different account which is a mod in my test group but with no privileges. The notification panel was there and all notifications were available to me.

Also, while logged in as myself, I went into the two other groups i'm on a mod in, and in which I definitely do not have "set moderation privileges." Same thing.

So Andy, how did you test this and find that notifications are available only if "set moderator privileges" is set? Because I'm seeing otherwise.

Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

Great, thanks for checking that out. 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 1:24 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 11:40 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
OTOH after posting this I know only that I, as group owner, can set mods with no permissions to receive the notifications. But I don’t know if the mod themself can opt to receive the notifications. It’s possible they are selectable  by me but not by the mod in their view of their member page. I haven’t tested that yet.
After a bit of basic testing it seems that if a mod has been granted 'Set Moderator Privileges' then they can turn notifications on and off in the Moderator Notifications panel of their membership record. Without 'Set Moderator Privileges' the Moderator Notifications panel doesn't show so they only get what the Owner has set for them.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 11:40 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
OTOH after posting this I know only that I, as group owner, can set mods with no permissions to receive the notifications. But I don’t know if the mod themself can opt to receive the notifications. It’s possible they are selectable  by me but not by the mod in their view of their member page. I haven’t tested that yet.
After a bit of basic testing it seems that if a mod has been granted 'Set Moderator Privileges' then they can turn notifications on and off in the Moderator Notifications panel of their membership record. Without 'Set Moderator Privileges' the Moderator Notifications panel doesn't show so they only get what the Owner has set for them.

Andy


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

OTOH after posting this I know only that I, as group owner, can set mods with no permissions to receive the notifications. But I don’t know if the mod themself can opt to receive the notifications. It’s possible they are selectable  by me but not by the mod in their view of their member page. I haven’t tested that yet.


On Jan 1, 2021, at 3:27 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I seem to remember (although it may be wishful thinking) Mark making it so that only mods with the corresponding permissions had the options to receive notifications. This was something I requested at one point and I thought it had been changed. But it hasn't. Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc. Did I imagine the statement about the fix? It's very difficult to traverse all the notification threads at this point.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

I seem to remember (although it may be wishful thinking) Mark making it so that only mods with the corresponding permissions had the options to receive notifications. This was something I requested at one point and I thought it had been changed. But it hasn't. Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc. Did I imagine the statement about the fix? It's very difficult to traverse all the notification threads at this point.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I have no knowledge of Mark's thinking, and would prefer to let him speak for himself, where he wishes to, rather than have others speak for him.

My thoughts are only to express alternative ways to look at the situation, and perhaps express my view of a balance between what might work for GIO and what might work for moderators and users - stakeholders. Hopefully that might result in a model that is both profitable and sustainable. I have doubts that the present projections meet that criteria.

AllTheBest

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 06:06:33 PM EST, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same.
Well I for one expect that Mark has done exactly that, but I would not expect him to reveal the details.

It's called commercial confidentiality.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same.
Well I for one expect that Mark has done exactly that, but I would not expect him to reveal the details.

It's called commercial confidentiality.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I don't care of the answers. Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same. Rather than just criticizing, why not state your objection? 

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 05:04:54 PM EST, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 01:51 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
Within that, how much must come from Groups.i
You're seriously purporting to ask Mark how much income he wants, and how much of it he wants to come from groups.io?
God I love this thread...
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 01:51 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
Within that, how much must come from Groups.i
You're seriously purporting to ask Mark how much income he wants, and how much of it he wants to come from groups.io?
God I love this thread...
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I think more important is for assessing pricing is:
  1. How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
  2. Within that, how much must come from Groups.io
  3. Then, how to get there in a way that balances the needs of moderators and members and the perception of price stability with the income need.
AllTheBest.

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 04:33:28 PM EST, billsf9c via groups.io <oowonbs@...> wrote:


Maybe we could think and suggest better if we first ask Mark...

How much do you need per group?
And/or...
How much do you need per member...
To fund all that must be funded, including 'growth.'

Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join would cause me to drop all but 1 or 3 groups I'm in (of perhaps 30, most of which I am inactive in,) is a cumbersome way to describe our potential to pay... aside from the difficulty of payment if it is done group by group. Rewarding non-posters who lower bandwidth is a recipie for failing lists. Maybe rewarding those who don't read online helps, but then Premium is shot in the foot.

BillSF9c


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Duane
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 03:33 PM, billsf9c wrote:
Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join
I don't believe that was ever mentioned.  You may be thinking about the $5 per account (email address) that was proposed, so you'd only pay $5 per year if you use the same account for all groups.

Duane


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

billsf9c
 

Maybe we could think and suggest better if we first ask Mark...

How much do you need per group?
And/or...
How much do you need per member...
To fund all that must be funded, including 'growth.'

Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join would cause me to drop all but 1 or 3 groups I'm in (of perhaps 30, most of which I am inactive in,) is a cumbersome way to describe our potential to pay... aside from the difficulty of payment if it is done group by group. Rewarding non-posters who lower bandwidth is a recipie for failing lists. Maybe rewarding those who don't read online helps, but then Premium is shot in the foot.

BillSF9c

2321 - 2340 of 29648