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moderated Re: Simplified Donation feature #suggestion

 

Andy,


If Groups.io is holding group members' donations made on the understanding that they would be used to pay group subscription fees, what happens if a Group owner decides to close the group down in the meantime?

My concept stated "No Refunds". In that case the remaining prepayment would convert to Groups.io. 

I'm sure there must be lots of legal and financial rules that would need to be satisfied in order to operate in this manner.

I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt it amounts to anything more than prior notice of the policy. There are always exceptional cases, and Mark may need to use his judgement about such cases.

 
if that's not the intention then a simpler solution (from an Admin point of view) would probably be to have members make donations. I think the downside of that though is that there is less certainty of cash flow which doesn't really help business planning.

I don't follow what you said there. The current Donation mechanism and my proposed Simplified mechanism are both based on the idea that members will donate to a shared goal. The significant difference is that the current mechanism allows donation for unrestricted purposes: It is up to the group owner to follow-through with the stated purpose.

I can understand the option to deal with group owners for payments (less people to deal with so less of an admin overhead) and I'm happy with that.

That is the current mechanism. And while it is simpler in that sense, it has also proven unable to bring in enough income for Groups.io - hence the other topic about the Pricing Changes.

Necessity being the mother of invention, this suggestion is motivated in large part to increase that income by making it easier for group owners to raise the funds necessary to pay the group's plan fees.

Even if Mark reversed his decision on grandfathered basic groups and said there would be a nominal $10 per year fee I bet most people would stay with Groups.io.

I don't want to engage in the Pricing debate on this topic, there's enough of that in the other.
Shal


moderated Re: Discard button on Send Message page #bug

 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 1:37 PM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
While attempting to send a message to a member this morning (accessed using Send Message at the bottom of that member's page), I noticed that the Discard button on the page doesn't seem to do anything.  There's no draft created, but I can't leave the page using the button.  I think it used to take me back to their member page.

This should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Include Email Aliases in Member List #suggestion

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:27 AM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Bruce wrote:
... Failing that, if you attempt to invite or direct add an aliased address, the error message could say something more helpful, along the lines of "already a member (as an alias of xx@ yy.com)."

I'd vote for that as the primary suggestion. Then the moderator wouldn't have to search for it.

I've made that change.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Simplified Donation feature #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Shal

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 08:13 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
Overpayment rolls over to next plan payment.
If Groups.io is holding group members' donations made on the understanding that they would be used to pay group subscription fees, what happens if a Group owner decides to close the group down in the meantime?  You could end up with lots of people demanding refunds.  I'm sure there must be lots of legal and financial rules that would need to be satisfied in order to operate in this manner.   if that's not the intention then a simpler solution (from an Admin point of view) would probably be to have members make donations. I think the downside of that though is that there is less certainty of cash flow which doesn't really help business planning.

I can understand the option to deal with group owners for payments (less people to deal with so less of an admin overhead) and I'm happy with that. I use a service and I pay for it. The trouble with saying things are 'free' is that people don't appreciate the value of what they're getting.  Personally I think there should be a charge for basic groups.  Even if Mark reversed his decision on grandfathered basic groups and said there would be a nominal $10 per year fee I bet most people would stay with Groups.io.

Andy


moderated Re: Database buttons #suggestion

Leeni
 

I am glad you suggested that as I have some databases that are getting pretty long and when I have to add a new entry, it takes quite some time to get down to the bottom to add a row.
 
Another suggestion if it is easier then adding the row of buttons at the top too, put an arrow to we can click on to bring us down to the bottom, like you have an arrow to bring us up to the top.
 
I think both would work.
Thanks, Leeni 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 1/4/2021 2:13:03 PM
Subject: [beta] Database buttons #suggestion
 
It would be very handy if there was an option to have the database buttons at the top so you don't have to scroll all the way down to get to them:

 


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 10:20 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.
After "further consideration" (aka sleeping on it;) I now agree with you that this is the best compromise. So something does need to be fixed here, as you outlined: make the Subscription page for a Mod match their own Member page in the sense that they see the notification options panel if and only if they have Set Moderator Privileges set.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Simplified Donation feature #suggestion

 

Mark,

I thought I'd break this out as a separate Suggestion, since it is actually separate from the Pricing Changes topic.

If any aspects of this suggestion reflect a naivety with regard to the existing Donation mechanism that's my fault: so far I've neither used or tested it, I've only read the Owners Manual sections about it.


Simplifications:

No reliance on group-owner to sign up with a processing service to collect payments.

Only a single Donation request may be created, its proceeds are credited as a prepayment to the group's next plan payment.


Motivation:

The need to create a Stripe account is a stumbling block for many group owners who might otherwise rely on members to (help) support the group's plan payments:

o Complexity of the setup
o Dealing with a third-party to collect payments
o Exposing their personal bank account to said third party
o Concern over tax implications of receiving funds
o Concern over fiduciary responsibilities to donees.

Avoids double-payment of Stripe fees - first when the member donates to the group owner, and again when the group payor pays the plan fee.


Concepts:

From the group management (owner/moderator) viewpoint similar to the existing Donation mechanism, absent the step of setting up a Stripe account, and with the creation of a Donation request limited to a single one for prepayments.

From the Member's viewpoint no significant difference from the existing Donation mechanism.

Overpayment rolls over to next plan payment.

Underpayment must be made up by group payor on normal plan payment terms.

No refunds. When a group is closed any unused prepayment is retained by Groups.io.


Enhancement:

Extend the Simplified feature to Basic Groups, facilitating a "bootstrap" from Basic to Premium.

Shal


moderated Database buttons #suggestion

Chris Smith
 

It would be very handy if there was an option to have the database buttons at the top so you don't have to scroll all the way down to get to them:


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

Many, perhaps most, business owners are out to please, business schools often say delight, their stake holders. For GIO, this is users and moderators. I only learned of the price and feature changes 2 weeks ago. I am concerned.

GIO has a survey function!! Has it been used to survey stakeholders?

Most businesses need to make some profit. And, most businesses have a mission statement that deals with broader issues. Does GIO have a mission statement? Perhaps even a Board of Directors or Steering Committee to provided diverse opinions to such matters? Yes, this forum may be it, but it is limited, not generally known, and perhaps not really representative of the big picture and future considerations. 

AllTheBest.

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 03:25:50 PM EST, ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:


On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Tom Madden wrote:

> > 4. Mark’s expenses, what he needs to charge, and what he feels is a fair
> > return for his efforts, are none of our business.

Mark thinks it is, that's why this thread exists. Of course he can charge whatever he likes, but if he doesn't manage to find enough people willing to invest thousands of dollars in his one-man (!)  operation, and will have to either shut down the service or demand payment from all owners/group-members, it will be our business.

It would be nice (and useful for advertising purposes) to know how big groups.io is, like number of groups, number of moderators, number of users, number of messages, number of cancelled groups...

It would also be nice if we could invest a modest amount of money to get things going and finance some continuity.

                                                groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo





locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Tom Madden wrote:

4. Mark’s expenses, what he needs to charge, and what he feels is a fair
return for his efforts, are none of our business.
Mark thinks it is, that's why this thread exists. Of course he can charge whatever he likes, but if he doesn't manage to find enough people willing to invest thousands of dollars in his one-man (!) operation, and will have to either shut down the service or demand payment from all owners/group-members, it will be our business.

It would be nice (and useful for advertising purposes) to know how big groups.io is, like number of groups, number of moderators, number of users, number of messages, number of cancelled groups...

It would also be nice if we could invest a modest amount of money to get things going and finance some continuity.

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

billsf9c
 

>> Mark’s expenses, what he needs to charge, and what he feels is a fair return for his efforts, are none of our business.
> Hear, hear.

True ! But Not the point...
If he said we have x many this groups and x many that groups and I need/want y$ for this and z$ for that...

We might be able to better suggest HOW we'd like to be billed. Maybe X$ charged to an owner/group or Y$/member. If we've no idea what is required of us, it's harder go suggest how it might be best collected.

However, we now know the billing structure, so, maybe a moot point. Now we know more. Maybe going forward we can make better suggestions.

I still see a huge need/desire to be able to enhance a basic/free list without the gargantuan leap to 200/year when we may have to do that for 4 or 5 lists and only want a tiny bit more enhancement.

Maybe it's just not cost effective to offer us 10 or 50 Megs of Photos and some limited Files for 20-50$/yr versus a GargantuanGig. "Might not make him rich," but it might help with "bread and butter," and be less of a drain. 

Ihave both grandfathered lists and newer basic lists that have Nothing... but need only a BIT of enhancement to help them be attractive and grow into bigger lists... Not a GigaBit/byte. 😉 This is the crux some of us face, when we are not only in/own ONE list.

HNY!
BillSF9c


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 05:53 PM, Ginger Iorizzo wrote:
so maybe advertising, only on Basic groups,
Excuse me if I don't agree. Loudly.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Charles Roberts
 

Hear hear Ginger.....my feelings exactly.   Now standby while we get jumped on.


On Jan 3, 2021 12:53 PM, Ginger Iorizzo <gingeriorizzo@...> wrote:
I've been following all the messages about pricing changes for quite a while now and I'd like to add my .02, for whatever it's worth.
I own two very small Basic groups, that are grandfathered in for subgroups, photos, files, etc.  If the pricing structure ever changed, we would probably have to look for a different forum.  I don't believe we could pay for our groups.  However, although I know Mark doesn't want to consider advertising, I would not object to having ads on my Basic groups to help offset the costs.  I understand that free groups can't remain free forever, and it's not fair to have the features of paying groups when we're not paying, so maybe advertising, only on Basic groups, would be a way to keep them from jumping ship to a different forum.
As I said, just my .02.
Ginger


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

You’re right that there’s no exact matchup but there is for some of them. However, I don’t think having Set Moderator Privileges unset should deprive a mod of the ability to select which notifications they receive. It seems unconnected. Plus, I could swear that Mark said he’d implemented my suggestion. I need to hunt for the thread. It’s really hard because the whole notifications update thread got ridiculously long and twisted...


On Jan 3, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The mod needs access, at least in part, to their OWN notification options.
Part of the issue here is that there does not appear to be a direct correlation between the Mod Privileges and the Notifications.  Part of the logic I think you are requesting is in place as if the Approve Pending Message permission is set then the Pending Messages option appears in the Mod Notifications panel (and is removed if the permission is unchecked).  Which notifications would apply though for permission Manage Subgroups (for example) or even Modify Group Settings?

While I can understand the approach you are suggesting, until there is a clear option for an owner to give a Mod the ability to receive certain notifications I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.

Regards
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The mod needs access, at least in part, to their OWN notification options.
Part of the issue here is that there does not appear to be a direct correlation between the Mod Privileges and the Notifications.  Part of the logic I think you are requesting is in place as if the Approve Pending Message permission is set then the Pending Messages option appears in the Mod Notifications panel (and is removed if the permission is unchecked).  Which notifications would apply though for permission Manage Subgroups (for example) or even Modify Group Settings?

While I can understand the approach you are suggesting, until there is a clear option for an owner to give a Mod the ability to receive certain notifications I think it would be best if they had nothing unless they have 'Set Moderator Privileges'.

Regards
Andy


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Ginger Iorizzo
 

I've been following all the messages about pricing changes for quite a while now and I'd like to add my .02, for whatever it's worth.
I own two very small Basic groups, that are grandfathered in for subgroups, photos, files, etc.  If the pricing structure ever changed, we would probably have to look for a different forum.  I don't believe we could pay for our groups.  However, although I know Mark doesn't want to consider advertising, I would not object to having ads on my Basic groups to help offset the costs.  I understand that free groups can't remain free forever, and it's not fair to have the features of paying groups when we're not paying, so maybe advertising, only on Basic groups, would be a way to keep them from jumping ship to a different forum.
As I said, just my .02.
Ginger


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Tom Madden
 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 01:15 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
Tom,

> Here are a few thoughts that clarified things for me…..

All good, except:

> 2. This group was set up to avoid swamping the GMF. Given the number
> of posts, that was a wise move.

That one is almost exactly backwards.
Thanks, Shal. Another member pointed that out to me privately as well. I transferred my 20 year old, 2100 member group a couple of years ago, upgraded to Premium last January, and must admit that was my first post to a management forum, either here or on Yahoo. In retrospect, not only did I not understand the structure, that bullet point added nothing to what I was trying to say. Should have let the post marinate for an hour or so instead of posting it immediately!

Tom Madden


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 03:33 PM, Jeremy H wrote:
The absence of 'free to owner', basic, groups will make groups.io poorer.
Particularly so if a group's membership looks like exceeding the 100 member limit, and it is worth remembering that it is a hard limit; the only way to enable an increase is to convert to Premium which is likely to represent a major barrier. There is no proposed incremental pricing mechanism available to free groups.

I may be wrong (in fact I hope I am) but IMHO there is a significant risk that the Law of Unintended Consequences will come into play at some point in the future; it is unlikely to be immediate unless there is a speculative rush to create new free groups before the new regime starts on the off - chance of possible later repurposing.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Jeremy H
 

I've thought fairly long and hard before making this  post, but...
(Note; in this post, by "groups.io" I mean the whole groups.io ecosystem)

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 09:37 PM, Tom Madden wrote:

As I read this thread I get the feeling we’re overthinking the situation. Especially when we drill down into the minutiae of incremental costs, social “worthiness” of groups, and financial resources of individuals. Here are a few thoughts that clarified things for me…..

Most of which I would not disagree with. Except

5. This is “groups.io”, not “subscribers.io”. We transferred from Yahoo as groups, not as individuals. Individuals do not join groups.io; groups do.

But individuals do join, and become part of,  groups.io - and have individual relationships with Groups.io, Inc as well as the groups they are members of.

The value of groups.io is down to - and enjoyed by - the triad of Groups.io, Inc; group owners; and group members. All three are needed - and benefit. And for a better groups.io, all need - in their various ways - to grow. The problem with the proposed new pricing structure is that, for new and upgraded groups, (increased) members impose (increased) cost on group owners, which has not been the case so far.    

Discussing ways Mark can administer individual subscriptions is pointless. That’s the group owner’s job. Mark doesn’t approve subscriptions, monitor topics, moderate “loose cannon” subscribers. Determining how (or if) to pay to maintain or upgrade to Premium from Basic is one more responsibility of a group owner. For existing Basic groups, that can be as simple as limiting uploads or attachments to keep memory usage below the 1GB limit.

While some groups have funds from, or for, their members with which they can pay Groups.io, Inc , others do not (and, I would suggest, that includes some of the largest publicly listed groups, which have 5 figure mamberships), and so are reliant on being free Basic groups; which hitherto have been available. But that in the future are unaffordable.

While their owners may be prepared accept the responsibilty of running them, putting in the time and effort required, payment is - for many if not most - not a responsibility that they can or will be prepared take on.

And so suggestions have been made as to how individual members - as beneficiaries of the service - can make payments to Group.io, Inc , for that service.

The absence of 'free to owner', basic, groups will make groups.io poorer.

Jeremy H


moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 06:28 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
And you/Chris
should read "and you (Andy) and Chris"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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