Date   

moderated Re: Messages contain CC:group even with ReplyTo=sender and "Remove other options" #bug

Jim Avera
 

Mark,
It's still a problem, at least for subscribers with certain MUAs.  I use Thunderbird, and the default reply action is always "Reply To List" even though the group is a [Announce-Only, Reply-to-Sender,Remove-other-options] group.  

Even though configured to omit all options other than reply-to-sender, GIO is embedding many headers which contain the group posting email address:

Sender: mygroupname@groups.io
List-Id: <mygroupname@groups.io>
Mailing-List: list mygroupname@groups.io; contact ...
Delivered-To: mailing list mygroupname@groups.io
List-Post: <mailto:mygroupname@groups.io>

Are all these necessary?   I'm suspicious of List-Post and Mailing-List in particular.  If these are not *required* by some protocol, it might be best to omit them for groups configured to not allow reply-to-list.  Ideally the post-to-list email address would not appear anywhere in the message in that case (perhaps it could be mangled so a human would know what it is, but no MUA could know the posting address).

I'll attach the actual headers from a message I received recently from our group.

Thanks.


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

Another (minor) issue is that the action available to the moderator is “send confirmation message” but it is logged in the activity log as “resent confirmation message.” This is confusing because “send” reads as if it has not already been sent and you’re sending it for the first time.


On May 5, 2020, at 8:03 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 03:14 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It shows in the activity log but does not show in her email delivery history. So that's a definite bug, and probably just a logging bug
Another possible shortcoming is that while a Moderator resending a Confirmation Email is logged (albeit not as completely as it might be) a member responding to it has no coresponding activity logged; the only way a Moderator can see if the prompt has been actioned is to trawl through the membership list to see if the flag has gone away.

I cannot remember if it was on this forum or GMF but someone suggested an enhanced drop - down selection for "Members". Being able to find the NCs easily might be a worthwhile function.

Chris

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 03:14 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
It shows in the activity log but does not show in her email delivery history. So that's a definite bug, and probably just a logging bug
Another possible shortcoming is that while a Moderator resending a Confirmation Email is logged (albeit not as completely as it might be) a member responding to it has no coresponding activity logged; the only way a Moderator can see if the prompt has been actioned is to trawl through the membership list to see if the flag has gone away.

I cannot remember if it was on this forum or GMF but someone suggested an enhanced drop - down selection for "Members". Being able to find the NCs easily might be a worthwhile function.

Chris


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

Resent the confirmation email. It shows in the activity log but does not show in her email delivery history. So that's a definite bug, and probably just a logging bug.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

And I have another one just this morning. Received and replied to the pending message, so I know she's getting and responding to emails. Is NC and there's no record of the confirmation email having gone out, although of course it may have gone out prior to the pending notification, but only the latter is logged. I will send (and probably resend, and resend again) the confirmation email and hope for the best.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 02:51 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
And lo and behold not long after the above the member concerned did respond and the NC flag has vanished. So was the earlier Confirmation Email delivered and ignored or was it not delivered?
This usually happens with my group, too. Hard to say. Contacting the pending member outside the system usually yields no conclusion. Often, I email Mark at support to complain about an NC, yet very known-to-me, member (this is for my non-premium group - in my premium group, we are allowed to confirm them, although I don't think there should be this distinction), and a couple of days later, the NC is gone with no explanation. So then I tell Mark to ignore the email. Happens over and over again.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:19 PM, I wrote:
I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 

It leaves me wondering whether these Confirmation Emails actually get sent.
And lo and behold not long after the above the member concerned did respond and the NC flag has vanished. So was the earlier Confirmation Email delivered and ignored or was it not delivered?

The mystery deepens...

Chris


moderated Add repeat option to Calendar Events for Last day of the month #suggestion

Rob Sipes
 

Hello,

Would it be possible to add a third option to the Calendar Events Repeat section to select the Last day of the month?

For example:
Repeats: Monthly
Repeat Every: 1 months

  • Repeat by day of the week
  • Repeat by day of the month
  • Repeat by last day of the month
Thank you,
Rob


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

And further, don't send any group-member-specific emails - including the Welcome message - to any unconfirmed or unverified members, even if approved. If you want to send member-specific content to approved members, then allow the group, even if basic, to also automatically confirm the member.


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:44 AM J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Might be worth changing the wording in the email
Also the displays and badges, as I mentioned.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
Might be worth changing the wording in the email
Also the displays and badges, as I mentioned.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 07:39 AM, Duane wrote:
that's why I earlier used Confirm for the account and Verify for the group. 
Missed that but I 100% agree with you.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

Duane
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 09:26 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I think the main problem is the overlaying of the term "confirmed" to apply to both the account and to a particular group membership.
Yes, that's why I earlier used Confirm for the account and Verify for the group.  Might be worth changing the wording in the email sent when attempting to join a group to clarify the two.

Duane


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

Maybe the situation could be revised along the following lines. Have an account status "unconfirmed account," which attaches to an email address and would display as UA. Have a separate status, which attaches to an email address and an individual group, called "unconfirmed membership," and which would display as UM in the particular group if the member has not confirmed their interest in that group. The possible combinations would have to be worked out but it seems to be pretty simple. "UA" displays only if the member has not confirmed their membership in any group. If the member has confirmed for a single group, nothing displays in that group, but "UM" may display in a second group if they apply to the group via email and do not confirm. Etc.

In a premium restricted group (and, I have argued, and Shal implicitly argues here, in any group), once a member is approved for that group, (1) the account is confirmed and UA never appears for that email address in any group, and (2) the membership is confired and UM does not appear in the particular group. In other words, the group confirms its own members.

I think the main problem is the overlaying of the term "confirmed" to apply to both the account and to a particular group membership.

If a group resends a confirmation email, it could be labelled instead "resend group confirmation email" and recorded in the email delivery history as such (right now, as Chris and I have noticed, it is not recorded there at all, but that seems to be a simple oversight).

Etc. There are undoubtedly more details to be worked out, but the main thing would be to separate, in language, actions, and displays, confirmation or non-confirmation of an account vs of membership in a group.

And I also argue (again) that basic as well as premium groups should confirm their own members upon approval if a group is restricted. I can see no real basis for making this a premium/paid feature.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 06:53 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
 NC stands for "not confirmed," yet does not display even when a member HAS confirmed their interest in a second group,
Typo with double negatives. Should read "yet does not display when a member not confirmed their interest in a second group even after having been asked to confirm"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Rejoining a group later #bug

Duane
 

While doing some research on another #bug (https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/73955560), I ran into an anomaly.  It appears that if you've ever been a member of a group, your application to join again doesn't follow the normal routine.  I applied to a restricted group where the account in question had been a member a couple of years ago (for testing) and did not get the pending notice, nor did the application show as a pending member.  I suspect that the account is being remembered in the 'past members' list, thus changing the work flow, but can't verify this because this is a Basic group.  There should be a time limit when the account in question starts all over.  An easy way would be to delete them from the past members list after a given time, say a year, but there may be groups that would want to keep the information longer than that.  The other obvious alternative is to treat all applications as new, but I think this might interfere with the rejoin routine when someone is removed for marking a message as spam.

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 04:19 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
The subsequent resending of the Confirmation Email shows up in the Activity Log but not in the Email Delivery History. I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 
Yes, yes, yes. I have reported this as a bug several times, and just did so again yesterday in a message to support. And that's just one problem among the many cited here. The confirmation process is a MESS.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 05:46 AM, Duane wrote:
After confirming your email address this way, you do still need to verify that you want to join a group if you apply via email, but the pending/accepted member will not be NC.
Nevertheless, if this is the first group someone is joining, and that group happens to be a premium restricted group, the group can confirm the member (INCLUDING removing the NC) by approving their membership. I have been arguing for some time that this should be true also for non-premium groups, because - as Shal implicitly argues in this thread - once a group approves someone's membership, that should also confirm them.

The fact that NC stands for "not confirmed," yet does not display even when a member HAS confirmed their interest in a second group, makes the situation even worse. 's the language that's the problem in this detail. It may even have been leading to a situation reported here as a bug recently (I think by you?) where the NC has not been appearing even though the member has not confirmed.

The entire NC display and confirmation process, including the language, is in need of a major overhaul IMO.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

Duane
 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 09:51 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Confirmation is not strictly a function of the account if the member applies to a group via email. They still have to confirm in that case, even if they already have an account.
NC is strictly a function of the account.  It's only needed once per account, regardless of the number of groups joined.  After confirming your email address this way, you do still need to verify that you want to join a group if you apply via email, but the pending/accepted member will not be NC.

Duane


moderated Re: Welcome message delivered to NC members #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 03:43 AM, Duane wrote:
I do see where it makes no sense to send it (on either type of group) if they haven't confirmed their email address though.
IMHO there is another anomalous factor in play. The group I co - own has on occasions admitted members who have not responded to the Confirmation Message, but who have responded to the Pending Membership message. In sending that response they have confirmed their email address and the reason for joining, so the NC flag serves no useful ongoing purpose. I usually prompt them to positively respond to the Confirmation Email by firstly sending them a specific email about the point and then sending another Confirmation Email. At least I think I do; let me explain further. In the example cited above the email I send shows up (a) in the Activity Log (even if its content is not recorded) and (b) in the individual's Email Delivery History. The subsequent resending of the Confirmation Email shows up in the Activity Log but not in the Email Delivery History. I have just sent another Confirmation Email to such a member without a prior warning email; again it shows up in the Activity Log but not the Email Delivery History. 

It leaves me wondering whether these Confirmation Emails actually get sent. If the members responded to them I would know, but they don't; is the lack of response because (a) they cannot be bothered, or (b) because they didn't actually receive anything to respond to?

Chris


moderated Re: Site updates #changelog

Andy Wedge
 

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 04:25 PM, Thomas Gruber wrote:
See entry from 4/30/20
Yes, I'm aware of that. I wanted to make sure that the situation hadn't changed again since then.

Andy