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moderated Re: Blacklisting - using multiple IP addresses? #suggestion

John Wirtz SF
 

Mark, 

 

Thanks for all your hard work on this.  It’s a thankless task at times.

 

Re “I don't know how to prevent that behaviour”: you might need to publish some administrator guidelines.  One thing that is necessary is house-keeping.  Administrators need to do a minimum to keep their data up to date, review the meber list at regular intervals specially those that run open groups.

 

I don’t allow anyone to join unless I have some indication they are a genuine person.  If we get an anonymous application and can’t trace the sender, we ask them to provide a minimum of info.  You’d be surprised how many of those request remain unanswered.  So, it’s worth checking.

 

When I first joined the premium service, the one facility I wanted was “direct join”.  All recipients can reject the invitation if they want so I don’t consider it being intrusive.

But I’d request improvement to the member database and the ability to sort, the splitting up of display name into “First “and “Last Name”.  It would be really good if w could set up a weekly/monthly report on bouncing or problematic addresses.

 

I know you can get these reports by downloading various lists but the amount of work afterwards to make them user friendly is prohibitive.

How difficult would  async facility between the system address database and the database section of the site be?  Then investigations and filtering would be possible from within io.groups.

 

 

But the basic requirement is for administrator to be firm with their members, if they don’t want to identify themselves, what is it they are wanting to hide.  We only ask for first name, last name, email and town/city and country of residence.  Not exactly the Spanish inquisition.

 

Hope this helps you look at behavioural change.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Fletcher
Sent: 27 October 2020 13:37
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Blacklisting - using multiple IP addresses? #suggestion

 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 5:40 AM Curt Gowan <curt.gowan@...> wrote:


It has occurred to me that perhaps Groups.io could have a separate email server for the paid groups and one for the free groups -- to somewhat limit the damage due to blacklisting of IP addresses. There could even be another email server for use when troubleshooting groups suspected of causing blacklisting.

 

Certainly in the past, the reason we've been put on blocklists was because of premium groups direct adding bad addresses to their groups. My suspicion is that with this last wave of Yahoo Group refugees, that's what's happened again. If I had to guess, it's people direct adding email addresses that had been bouncing on Y! Groups for many years now. I don't know how to prevent that behavior.

 

Mark


moderated Re: Blacklisting - using multiple IP addresses? #suggestion

 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 5:40 AM Curt Gowan <curt.gowan@...> wrote:

It has occurred to me that perhaps Groups.io could have a separate email server for the paid groups and one for the free groups -- to somewhat limit the damage due to blacklisting of IP addresses. There could even be another email server for use when troubleshooting groups suspected of causing blacklisting.


Certainly in the past, the reason we've been put on blocklists was because of premium groups direct adding bad addresses to their groups. My suspicion is that with this last wave of Yahoo Group refugees, that's what's happened again. If I had to guess, it's people direct adding email addresses that had been bouncing on Y! Groups for many years now. I don't know how to prevent that behavior.

Mark


moderated Re: An easy way to reduce blacklisting #misc

Duane
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 07:40 AM, Curt Gowan wrote:
Many people think that reporting a subscription email as spam will cause the sender to take them off the list -- which is not the case.
It actually IS the case at GIO if the email service uses an FBL that GIO subscribes to.  I know that Mark has subscribed to most of them, but there may be some smaller services using them that he's not aware of yet.

Duane


moderated Re: An easy way to reduce blacklisting #misc

 

I like this idea, but it would also help if there was greater contrast on the website and group links within emails.


moderated An easy way to reduce blacklisting #misc

 

Many people think that reporting a subscription email as spam will cause the sender to take them off the list -- which is not the case.

All that generally does is to increment a counter in their email provider's anti-spam system. If a high enough percentage of recipients flag emails from a certain source as spam, their email provider will automatically block all posts sent to all users from that source -- and may report that info to Spamhaus and other public or private blacklist databases. 

Now that most people read email on devices with phones and tablets that have small screens, they don't even see the "unsubscribe" link in an email unless they know to scroll down and find the link -- which is often in tiny, faint gray type on a gray background.

The "Unsubscribe" link in Groups.io is readily readable, which is good, but it is still off the screen for many users.

What if the "Unsubscribe" or "Your Subscription" link were duplicated at the start of each email? 

--cg


moderated Blacklisting - using multiple IP addresses? #suggestion

 

Many, many years ago, I met with the Yahoo Groups team at Yahoo headquarters in Sunnyvale. One of the engineers drew a block diagram of how Yahoo Groups works, which showed that they have a pools of outbound email servers (with a unique IP address) separate from the machines that host the forums. They said that they used a separate set of email servers for the "adult" groups.

It has occurred to me that perhaps Groups.io could have a separate email server for the paid groups and one for the free groups -- to somewhat limit the damage due to blacklisting of IP addresses. There could even be another email server for use when troubleshooting groups suspected of causing blacklisting.

Unfortunately, I doubt that this would be easy to implement.
--cg


moderated Re: If you have a gmail account, you need to be checking your Spam folder every day or so. #meta

John Wirtz SF
 

Curt,

 

Thanks for that link, I asked Google about this but never received an answer.

 

Regards

 

John

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Curt Gowan
Sent: 27 October 2020 01:41
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: [beta] If you have a gmail account, you need to be checking your Spam folder every day or so. #meta

 

If you have a Gmail account, you need to be checking your Spam folder every day or so.  

All email systems have a spam or junk folder, where they temporarily park suspected spam messages before permanently deleting them. 
However, unlike most other email systems, Gmail normally hides the spam folder. 

It is easy to make your Gmail spam folder visible:

Find "Spam" in the list and click "show" 

(If you are not using some of the other labels -- like "Snoozed" or "Chats" -- change them to "hide" to reduce the clutter.)

--cg


moderated If you have a gmail account, you need to be checking your Spam folder every day or so. #meta

 

If you have a Gmail account, you need to be checking your Spam folder every day or so.  
All email systems have a spam or junk folder, where they temporarily park suspected spam messages before permanently deleting them. 
However, unlike most other email systems, Gmail normally hides the spam folder. 
It is easy to make your Gmail spam folder visible:
Find "Spam" in the list and click "show" 
(If you are not using some of the other labels -- like "Snoozed" or "Chats" -- change them to "hide" to reduce the clutter.)
--cg


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

Roger Colwell
 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 03:25 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
It could be that messages are being delayed as they're routed to Spamhous, so the time frames given may be incorrect. Or something else. Clearly I'm missing something.
Mark, is there any possibility that your mailserver is being scored negatively by its hostname using the .IO TLD (there may have been some earlier discussion about this but I cannot find it)? I presume you're the owner of groupsio.com (as it is a registered domain), so did you ever use that in earlier times?

Roger


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

Joseph Hudson
 

Mark, I'm seeing delay again with Spectrum/TWC. As of 2 o'clock.

On Oct 26, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

We were blocked again by Spamhaus last night for a few hours. They have not been helpful as of yet, and I have not been able to isolate what address is causing the blocking.

Good news is that I've gotten word from Charter that they have removed the block. So, some progress.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

 

Sounds like that thing where to stay in business you have to pay the mob.


On Oct 26, 2020, at 11:22 AM, John Wirtz SF <john@...> wrote:



Chris, 

 

One of the reasons I wanted to use a group rather than do bulk email from my own IP is that I encountered this problem and it wasn’t stable.  Every provider has different criteria, few of them report the bouncing (gmail in particular).

It has been a real problem for two or three years now.  I’ve attempted to get support but failed miserably, no answer to support emails, nothing.  Many asking for fees to unblock, etc.  One colleague said: just get “G Suite”.  I think that exactly what Google want.  There’s something going on and I can’t believe it’s only about spam.  Imagine if you post man filtered your mail before he put it though your letter box.  That’s exactly what these providers are doiung, makinf devisions for us anmd not giving us any support to fix it and authenticate our business activity.

 

But, for those who wonder why we pay, we have a (real person) who attempts to fix things for us.

 

Cheers

 

John Wirtz

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Jones via groups.io
Sent: 26 October 2020 15:12
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 02:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:

We were blocked again by Spamhaus last night for a few hours.

BT have also restored normal service - for now anyway!

Mark; when Groups.io gets blacklisted do you receive any formal notification or are you reliant on one of us flagging the problem up here or via the support email address?

Chris


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

John Wirtz SF
 

Chris, 

 

One of the reasons I wanted to use a group rather than do bulk email from my own IP is that I encountered this problem and it wasn’t stable.  Every provider has different criteria, few of them report the bouncing (gmail in particular).

It has been a real problem for two or three years now.  I’ve attempted to get support but failed miserably, no answer to support emails, nothing.  Many asking for fees to unblock, etc.  One colleague said: just get “G Suite”.  I think that exactly what Google want.  There’s something going on and I can’t believe it’s only about spam.  Imagine if you post man filtered your mail before he put it though your letter box.  That’s exactly what these providers are doiung, makinf devisions for us anmd not giving us any support to fix it and authenticate our business activity.

 

But, for those who wonder why we pay, we have a (real person) who attempts to fix things for us.

 

Cheers

 

John Wirtz

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Jones via groups.io
Sent: 26 October 2020 15:12
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 02:26 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:

We were blocked again by Spamhaus last night for a few hours.

BT have also restored normal service - for now anyway!

Mark; when Groups.io gets blacklisted do you receive any formal notification or are you reliant on one of us flagging the problem up here or via the support email address?

Chris


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

John Wirtz SF
 

Bob, 

 

That’s useful, how do you do it?

 

John Wirtz

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Oshel
Sent: 26 October 2020 14:27
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

 

You can set a filter in Gmail so it never sends messages from Groups.IO to spam.

 

   Bob

 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 7:48 AM Bärbel Stephenson <Lismibaebi@...> wrote:

During the last couple of days I have noticed that I quite a few messages are going into the Spam folder at gmail.  Messages from groups that never went into the spam folder before.

Barbara


moderated Re: Cannot edit my messages anymore #bug

 

I suppose that if you make this consistent, I would "vote" for leaving it off both types of groups. Because it's not a zero-one thing in the email case. You can go special-notices-only in the groups where you can't go no-email, so it would be somewhat misleading, and a possible disincentive to join, if a group says "you can't set your subscription to no email" right on the home page. So given that it seems undesirable to do that, why would you include the positive information for groups where people *can* go no-email? I would leave the infor off entirely for both types.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Cannot edit my messages anymore #bug

 

This is great. But when I happily checked out the change, I noticed that right below that, some groups say "members can set their subscriptions to no email," but the ones that don't allow it don't say so. So it's a parellel situation. That said, I don't know whether it's (a) going to extremes or (b) simply making things more consistent by doing the same with this one too.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Cannot edit my messages anymore #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 04:48 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
The home page now does this.
Thanks; that's much better.

Chris


moderated Re: Cannot edit my messages anymore #bug

 

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 8:15 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
I’ve never seen that kind because my group has editing disabled. But if it indicated when editing is allowed, I think it should also stats when it’s disallowed.

The home page now does this.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: File Sync typo #suggestion

 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 5:32 AM coprosowner <coprosowner@...> wrote:

It appears that there's a typo in the "File Sync" area "Note: No emails will sent to people when they are removed."

Thanks, this has been fixed.

Mark 


moderated Re: Groups.io Allegedly Blacklisted #misc

Andrew Partan
 

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 03:25 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I do not get any notification.
Odd; I do get notifications from spamcop.
Its From: @reports.spamcop.net and sent to abuse@
and it has a full copy of the offending message.

Andrew Partan


moderated Re: Compare page error (maybe) #bug

 

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 12:11 PM Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
The plan comparison page at https://groups.io/static/compare shows that Basic groups have access to the API.

I don't recall any announcement to this effect. What's in error, the page or my memory?

Initially, API access was going to be a premium only feature, but since the app uses the API, there's no practical way of limiting access. So it's available to all.

Thanks,
Mark 

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