I'm afraid I am a little vague about this.

In one of my group's File folders, there are about 815 different files.  Some are .ZIP files, some are .PDF, some are others, and many are folders (subdirectories).  I was looking for one particular subdirectory, but now they are interspersed among all the files and I didn't want to page through many pages of listings and search each page (web browser's ctrl-F) for the one I'm looking for.  To make it easier, I clicked "Type" near the top, to sort the listing by that column.  That put the regular files first, so I clicked "Type" again to reverse the sort order and make the Folders come first.  All good so far.

To my surprise, the folder I'm looking for is nowhere to be found.  No sign of it.  Not only that, there are no .PDF files either, but I KNOW there should be a few.  Where did they go?  Where did my subdirectory go?

I clicked "Name" to go back to the default sort order, and eventually found the folder I was looking for.  It is there.  But not there when I sorted by "Type".

Then, for kicks, I clicked "Type" again, but just once.  Then went to the last page and -- surprise! -- the .PDF files are now there!  I also started paging backwards, and -- what do you know -- the folder I was looking for is there too!  So it's there when "Type" is in one order, but it is missing when it's in the other order.  (If it's not missing, it is mixed somewhere among all the regular Files.)

I'm having some trouble making this 100% repeatable.  But I think I can never find the subdirectory I'm looking for, when Type is clicked twice so that the little arrow points down.  What is going on?

Andy

Hi Mark,

Please let me know if you see any other gremlins

I just noticed a weird one, a reply to the Welcome Notice (quoted) in one group by someone with the gio munged address, saying they never subscribed.

I checked and that email address in not in that group, present or past.

Seems the Welcome Notice message was sent to them on Jul 24, 2021, at 7:30 PM (based on the quoted text), and they replied on 7:52, same time as it was logged in the log under "Message to +owner" (as it would normally be when a member sent it), but there was no attempt by that address to join, nor there is anything else in the log anywhere (besides the above entry), either on the main or the subgroup logs or under "Non-member message" where the typical spam log entries show.

I didn't reply to it (and told the other mods not to, just in case) but it does look legit, I can send the pertinent info off-list.

Cheers,
Christos

I've locked this topic.

Mark

I tried posting earlier about the problem moderating messages. Couldn't get rid of the pending message by approving or rejecting. Delete finally worked.

My message to this group wound up in drafts. I've since deleted it.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:03 PM, Christos Psarras wrote:

Others also suggested doing just that (using the member list way to send the special notice)

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be adamant.
So do that. But if you're going to do that, if you want so badly to be able to reach everyone with a special notice, then why not simply disable no-email.
And now I'm done here. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

But what I don't understand is, you're so adamant about contracts and violations and such, yet this capability (or feature) of sending blast messages to (overriding) nomail users has been around ever since the admin could select one or more nomail users and sending them a message as special notice (we are only talking about special notices).  Others also suggested doing just that (using the member list way to send the special notice), and yet it's suddenly an issue now.  I'm sorry but I just don't get it.

Cheers,
Christos

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 03:50 PM, Dan Tucker wrote:

I have at least one member in my group who is THAT way. He adamantly does not want ANY contact from the group. 

If you have a problem with that member's non-participation (whatever that means to you), it's your choice to remove him. You can have any number of group guidelines that disallow the specific behavior you don't like. My group specifically has a guideline to the effect that "discussion of your cat's health is a two-way street" yada yada. But I have never enforced it. I don't feel it makes sense to try to force people to respond to anything. You never know what they're going through personally and why they're not responding, especially, in my group's case, with a sick cat.

And with that, I will exit this conversation.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 03:39 PM, Christos Psarras wrote:

it's the same exact thing as an admin selecting the NoMail users and sending those folks a message.

Which, again, is violating the contract. I might leave a group that let me choose no-email and then violated that. It's like you unsub from a mailing list and then get their blast emails anyway. A personal email might be a different story, sent just to that individual. But the proposed feature is to specifically allow violation of a member's no-email choice and send a blast email to everyone, "overriding" the no-email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 03:34 PM, Dan Tucker wrote:

It feels too much like a spy lurking in the shadows to me

Well, this conversation seems to have gone way off the rails. But I'll bite (to mix metaphors;). How is it a spy lurking in the shadows? It's just a matter of which way they choose to respond and has nothing to do with whether they respond at all or not. You can have a lurker who gets all the emails but never replies, let alone checks their email. Or you can have no-email members who reply to the group 10 times a day via the web. Whiich of those, to you, are the lurkers? And even if they lurk and DON'T reply one way or the other, some groups don't mind that. I have no requirement that members of my group send a bunch of messages or any messages at all and I think most groups are that way. But by all means, disable no-email if you feel that way. No need to criticize groups who, for whatever reason, allow no-email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

>>> I think that violates a member's choice to be no-email.

I personally don't think so, it's the same exact thing as an admin selecting the NoMail users and sending those folks a message. 

All this does is make it easier and efficient to send a special notice to everyone in the situations where everyone has to be contacted with a very important group-related matter. 

Cheers,
Christos

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 03:13 PM, Dan Tucker wrote:

if you don’t want to see our mail, there’s no point in being (not really being a) part of us.

Although I personally have set my group to disable no-email so that I can reliably send special notices, I totally disagree with that as well. Email is not the sina qua non of groups. Many, many people access their groups solely via the web. In no way are those people "not reallly being part of" the group.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:27 PM, Andy wrote:

Duane, were you typing a reply to an existing message?

No, this was moderating the group, both messages and members.

Duane

I think that violates a member's choice to be no-email. If you're going to do that, I think you need to be up-front and set the group to disable no-email. Otherwise, as a member of the group, I'm tell you, the owner, that I want no email, and you agree to that contract, and then you send me an email anyway.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

For what it's worth, I had this suggestion in my local drafts for quite a long time now, and this topic reminded me.

See attached, an additional checkbox in the NewTopic screen, and few lines of code downstream would allow the admin to post to all folks easily and efficiently in a single step, regardless of the NoEmail setting.

The checkbox would only become visible & enabled if the SpecialNotice checkbox is checked, and its default state would be unchecked.

Cheers,
Christos

Duane, were you typing a reply to an existing message?

If the message you are replying to is deleted before you press the green "Reply to Group" button, the symptoms you described happen.  I think that's the same thing in https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/29566

In all likelihood there are things that can foul up the works when actions happen in unexpected order, and it's hard to plan for all of them.

Andy

I had just typed a bug report with details about the Pending Members and Pending Messages having problems, possibly related to drop down boxes.  When I clicked Send, it was immediately sent to a Draft, but most of the information was gone.  I'm hoping there's a problem with the site that is leading to the problems in multiple areas, maybe related to the database connection problem seen a couple of days ago.  If not, I'll post individual reports.

Thanks,
Duane