Date   

locked Re: Delivery Options

Judy F.
 

Shal, I agree with your recommendations, at least until someone comes along
and confuses me again. LOL

I keep going back in my mind to those members that are very senior and
barely know how to turn on a computer, let alone understand hashtags (I had
to look it up and I'm not that senior yet). I think it's great having all
of these options to try to suit a large number of the various groups, but
let's not forget those people that are not that knowledgeable and also those
that are physically or mentally challenged in one way or the other. Things
need to be easy and not confusing. We all keep talking about ease of use,
some of us have never used another group except Yahoo, me for one.

I have said this before, but will say it again, I think this new group is
great and I feel sure it will be a success. Mark has taken on quite a task
and it's amazing how he is updating things as we go.


Thanks.

Judy F.,
SW Florida - USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Shal Farley [mailto:shal@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 8:12 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Delivery Options

Mark,

Here are the current delivery options:

- All Email
- First Message Only
- Replies Only
- Special Notices Only
- No Email
...
These are a lot of options. Any suggestions for how to make things
more clear, or better organized, would be appreciated.
In another thread, dg raises a good point:

I would think that back to what I'd said before - there are delivery
options, and then there are LSoft like "topic" options - and they
should be separate.
Perhaps refactoring it a bit could make it easier to understand. See if you
think this makes any more sense of things:

Email Delivery

o Individual Messages

o Daily digest - Group messages together as one email instead of
individually.

o Special Notices Only - Only Special notices from the moderators are
emailed to you.

o No Email - You will receive no emails.

Message Selection

o All Messages - Every message is emailed to you according to your Email
Delivery selection, except threads or hashtags you've muted.

o Following Only - Every message in threads or hashtags you are following
are emailed to you, except threads you've muted. (Special notices from the
moderators are followed).

|_| First Message Also - The first message of every thread is also
emailed to you, except for hashtags you've muted.

|_| Follow Replies - You automatically follow any threads you start or
reply in.

("First Message" is intended to be indented, an option to "Following Only".
"Follow Replies" applies regardless of the Message selection.)


This refactoring loses the case of getting messages from threads you start,
but not threads you replied in (as in the current "First Message Only"
option), but I think that's probably not a loss anyone will miss.

Making the "Follow Replies" a separate option means that it is useful even
for those who prefer to read and post messages via web (using the "Followed
Threads" lists on the web site).

I think thread following or muting threads should take precedence over
hashtags. That is implied above but not explicitly stated.

Special Notices are, well, special, in that they are sent immediately
and not included in any digests.
I think they should probably be included in the digests, as well as the
archives. Belts and suspenders, I know, but it could matter depending on
filters the member may have set up in their email. Also, I think fewer
special cases are better.

-- Shal


locked Re: How does one follow a topic or hashtag?

Frances
 

Ah, just found the Muting controls again - on my list of groups.

Frances

On Jan 17 15, at 7:56 PM, Shal Farley <shal@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Mark,

My initial assumption was that people would interact with their groups
through email and through the 'Inbox' view on the Groups.io website,
instead of visiting individual group archives.
Through email is certainly true for me. Apart from moderator duties, I only go to the group's archives when I'm new to a group or to research messages that I may not have kept in an email folder.

When you subscribe to a group, all of the group messages instantly show
up in your Inbox. So, when viewing threads in Inbox view, depending on
your subscription, you'll have either 'Mute This Thread' or 'Follow This
Thread' at the top (you get the same option in the message footers when
emailed to you).
Interesting about the Inbox view. I ignored it largely out of inexperience with Groups.io, I see how that's a valuable way of keeping up with one's groups for those who don't rely on email. I would never have thought of it as a way to research the messages of a group I just joined though - I'd want to be looking at just their messages.

I think affordances for Muting or Following a thread likely should appear wherever one sees a thread - in the Inbox list itself (not just after opening the thread/message), as well as in the lists and opened messages of the group's pages.

And there are separate views for threads you've already muted or
followed, along with muted hashtags, so that you can 'undo' those
operations.
Excellent. It is possible that group- and member-specific versions of those lists ought to appear as tabs of each group's Archives page. I think that will help bring these features "out in the open" - make their utility more discoverable as well as making them easier to understand. Perhaps there labeled "Your Followed Threads" and etc. to make it clear that those are member-specific.

-- Shal






locked Re: How does one follow a topic or hashtag?

Frances
 

Hi Mark,

Muting is fabulous and will appeal to many users, but right now it is a little too complicated. I think you need to show the controls for muting and unmuting on more screens.

I can see “muted threads” in the Inbox.
Not obvious how to unmute them.
So I have to click on the subject line of my muted thread.
And I can unmute the thread.
Okay - works.

But from my specific group I have to wander around.
Go to Archives.
My muted thread does show in Thread View (and it should, I think).
But nothing saying it is muted.
As Shal mentioned, it doesn’t show which of the threads have been muted - not under thread view, message view or expanded message view.

So I click on that message.
Edit thread doesn’t do anything.
I know I saw how to unmute before within the group before.
Giving up!

I will have to go back to the inbox. But I am sure I saw another screen just a few minutes ago that would allow me to unmute!

Frances








A glitch - if you click on Mute This Thread in your email, and it is already muted, you get a popup page that tells you this.
You have a yes / no question - do you want to mute this thread? The answer has to be No, or the window won’t close. It stays muted. Not a biggie, I guess!

On Jan 17 15, at 7:56 PM, Shal Farley <shal@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Mark,

My initial assumption was that people would interact with their groups
through email and through the 'Inbox' view on the Groups.io website,
instead of visiting individual group archives.
Through email is certainly true for me. Apart from moderator duties, I only go to the group's archives when I'm new to a group or to research messages that I may not have kept in an email folder.

When you subscribe to a group, all of the group messages instantly show
up in your Inbox. So, when viewing threads in Inbox view, depending on
your subscription, you'll have either 'Mute This Thread' or 'Follow This
Thread' at the top (you get the same option in the message footers when
emailed to you).
Interesting about the Inbox view. I ignored it largely out of inexperience with Groups.io, I see how that's a valuable way of keeping up with one's groups for those who don't rely on email. I would never have thought of it as a way to research the messages of a group I just joined though - I'd want to be looking at just their messages.

I think affordances for Muting or Following a thread likely should appear wherever one sees a thread - in the Inbox list itself (not just after opening the thread/message), as well as in the lists and opened messages of the group's pages.

And there are separate views for threads you've already muted or
followed, along with muted hashtags, so that you can 'undo' those
operations.
Excellent. It is possible that group- and member-specific versions of those lists ought to appear as tabs of each group's Archives page. I think that will help bring these features "out in the open" - make their utility more discoverable as well as making them easier to understand. Perhaps there labeled "Your Followed Threads" and etc. to make it clear that those are member-specific.

-- Shal






locked Re: Delivery Options

 

Mark,

Here are the current delivery options:

- All Email
- First Message Only
- Replies Only
- Special Notices Only
- No Email
...
These are a lot of options. Any suggestions for how to make things more
clear, or better organized, would be appreciated.
In another thread, dg raises a good point:

I would think that back to what I'd said before - there are delivery
options, and then there are LSoft like "topic" options - and they should
be separate.
Perhaps refactoring it a bit could make it easier to understand. See if you think this makes any more sense of things:

Email Delivery

o Individual Messages

o Daily digest - Group messages together as one email instead of individually.

o Special Notices Only - Only Special notices from the moderators are emailed to you.

o No Email - You will receive no emails.

Message Selection

o All Messages - Every message is emailed to you according to your Email Delivery selection, except threads or hashtags you've muted.

o Following Only - Every message in threads or hashtags you are following are emailed to you, except threads you've muted. (Special notices from the moderators are followed).

|_| First Message Also - The first message of every thread is also emailed to you, except for hashtags you've muted.

|_| Follow Replies - You automatically follow any threads you start or reply in.

("First Message" is intended to be indented, an option to "Following Only". "Follow Replies" applies regardless of the Message selection.)


This refactoring loses the case of getting messages from threads you start, but not threads you replied in (as in the current "First Message Only" option), but I think that's probably not a loss anyone will miss.

Making the "Follow Replies" a separate option means that it is useful even for those who prefer to read and post messages via web (using the "Followed Threads" lists on the web site).

I think thread following or muting threads should take precedence over hashtags. That is implied above but not explicitly stated.

Special Notices are, well, special, in that they are sent immediately
and not included in any digests.
I think they should probably be included in the digests, as well as the archives. Belts and suspenders, I know, but it could matter depending on filters the member may have set up in their email. Also, I think fewer special cases are better.

-- Shal


locked Re: Delivery Options

 

Reply on a second thought -

I think you are still mixing two separate concepts -
*what* you see, and *how* you see it.

These are *what* you see:
- All Email
- First Message Only
- Replies Only
- Special Notices Only
But this is a *how* you see it:
- No Email
IMO - Individual Messages, Digest, and No Email go together.

All Messages, First Message, Replies Only, <hashtag options>,
Special Notices Only are *what* you see. Muting or Following
a thread are added functionality in the *what* area.

Only place I'm still torn is the NoMail/Special Notice thing.
Myself - I would want to have people see them if the group
is going to be down (one of my mailing list servers is moving
from California to Oregon next week, so I need to make sure
the mirror group on Google has all the current addresses and
settings), or something like that - but if they really aren't
reading that mail - it's moot anyway, they'll just have to
find that out when they can't even get into the web group.

dg


locked Re: How does one follow a topic or hashtag?

 

Mark,

My initial assumption was that people would interact with their groups
through email and through the 'Inbox' view on the Groups.io website,
instead of visiting individual group archives.
Through email is certainly true for me. Apart from moderator duties, I only go to the group's archives when I'm new to a group or to research messages that I may not have kept in an email folder.

When you subscribe to a group, all of the group messages instantly show
up in your Inbox. So, when viewing threads in Inbox view, depending on
your subscription, you'll have either 'Mute This Thread' or 'Follow This
Thread' at the top (you get the same option in the message footers when
emailed to you).
Interesting about the Inbox view. I ignored it largely out of inexperience with Groups.io, I see how that's a valuable way of keeping up with one's groups for those who don't rely on email. I would never have thought of it as a way to research the messages of a group I just joined though - I'd want to be looking at just their messages.

I think affordances for Muting or Following a thread likely should appear wherever one sees a thread - in the Inbox list itself (not just after opening the thread/message), as well as in the lists and opened messages of the group's pages.

And there are separate views for threads you've already muted or
followed, along with muted hashtags, so that you can 'undo' those
operations.
Excellent. It is possible that group- and member-specific versions of those lists ought to appear as tabs of each group's Archives page. I think that will help bring these features "out in the open" - make their utility more discoverable as well as making them easier to understand. Perhaps there labeled "Your Followed Threads" and etc. to make it clear that those are member-specific.

-- Shal


locked Re: Delivery Options

 

On 1/17/2015 4:23 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
If you're set to All Email and mute a thread, you will not see that
thread in your digest.
I'm still not clear on how the Hashtag/Topics will work.

If you opt out of any messages with a specific hashtag,
but it also has hashtags you *are* following, you should
get the message/thread, right? (that's the way LSoft
does it)

Will that also be true of digest - any messages that
only have the undesired hashtag/topic should be left
out of the digest - but if the message has a tag/topic
that you do want as well as the unwanted one, it should
show up in the digest.

(apologies to any of you who have only dealt with Yahoo
and Google Groups - I've worked with several list server
programs, and can see that with the use of the hashtag,
Groups.io can have a functionality that is only available
on a very expensive server - LSoft. This functionality
is probably the only thing that has kept LSoft alive -
I'm not sure how much of what it does is configured by
the SysAdmin, and how much is built in - but on the
cat list that I am most familiar with, it only keeps
3 months of archived messages, and it is purely a mailing
list - no options for photos, files, etc. Those have to
be kept in some other location - and a lot of folks
gravitated to Yahoo because they did keep everything in
one place. So if Mark can add that one bit of functionality
that LSoft has now, with functionality Yahoo *should* have,
and the features it does, or did, have - I can see a lot
of folks jumping on board. Our list has a "let's move to
Yahoo" discussion about once a year).

dg


locked Delivery Options

 

(Moving to a new thread...)

Here are the current delivery options:

- All Email
- First Message Only
- Replies Only
- Special Notices Only
- No Email

You can select one of the above, and that decides which messages you receive. Muting/following threads/hashtags are separate. If you're set to All Email, you can mute threads and you'll never see those. Or if you're set to First Message Only or Replies Only, if you follow a thread, you *will* see all those messages.

The Daily Digest is a checkbox, and is separate from the delivery options. What the digest does is collect any emails you would have been sent, and combines them into one message at night (or every 25 messages, whichever comes first). Say you're on digest. If you're set to All Email and mute a thread, you will not see that thread in your digest. If you're on digest and Replies Only, you'll only see messages in threads you participate in and any other threads that you specifically follow. Digests are customized and different for every person, unlike Y! Groups.

Special Notices are, well, special, in that they are sent immediately and not included in any digests.

Hope this explains things. I know it's a bit confusing, especially since with All Email, you end up muting things you don't want, but with First Message/Replies Only, you end up following things you do want (exclude versus include).

These are a lot of options. Any suggestions for how to make things more clear, or better organized, would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:02 PM, CatWoman <diana@...> wrote:
On 1/17/2015 1:14 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
Does All Mail mean you are getting everything
individually?   If yes, maybe change that to also say as single messages or
something like that.

I agree - especially since all other listerver programs use
"Individual Messages" to mean just that.

I would think that back to what I'd said before - there
are delivery options, and then there are LSoft like "topic"
options - and they should be separate.

Individual Messages or Digest or NoMail or Admin Notifications.

Those are delivery options - and since Admin notifications can
contain information on something affecting the web-group access,
I prefer to use that option instead of NoMail.  With the caveat
that I often have two addresses subscribed, and the second is set
NoMail.

Topic options should be put in a separate file cabinet - it
affects *what* you see, not *how* you see it.  So if I am set
to Individual Messages, but opt to not see #catchat - I get
all messages except #catchat, as separate individual messages
in my email.  If I've chosen Digest, then the Digest would also
hopefully have everything but #catchat.

I don't know how easy that is to code - I do know that is one
place that LSoft fails (and probably is the main reason I do
not like Digest).  If you choose Digest on LSoft, you get
*EVERYTHING*, whether you've subscribed to the topic or not.

Question, however - if you "mute the thread", does it just
refer to the actual subject?  Or to the subject *and* all the
hashtags used by that subject?

Would assume that the hashtags would have to be a setting,
the way you do with LSoft - and the thread refers to whatever
is after the hashtags?

dg






locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

 

On 1/17/2015 1:14 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
Does All Mail mean you are getting everything
individually? If yes, maybe change that to also say as single messages or
something like that.
I agree - especially since all other listerver programs use
"Individual Messages" to mean just that.

I would think that back to what I'd said before - there
are delivery options, and then there are LSoft like "topic"
options - and they should be separate.

Individual Messages or Digest or NoMail or Admin Notifications.

Those are delivery options - and since Admin notifications can
contain information on something affecting the web-group access,
I prefer to use that option instead of NoMail. With the caveat
that I often have two addresses subscribed, and the second is set
NoMail.

Topic options should be put in a separate file cabinet - it
affects *what* you see, not *how* you see it. So if I am set
to Individual Messages, but opt to not see #catchat - I get
all messages except #catchat, as separate individual messages
in my email. If I've chosen Digest, then the Digest would also
hopefully have everything but #catchat.

I don't know how easy that is to code - I do know that is one
place that LSoft fails (and probably is the main reason I do
not like Digest). If you choose Digest on LSoft, you get
*EVERYTHING*, whether you've subscribed to the topic or not.

Question, however - if you "mute the thread", does it just
refer to the actual subject? Or to the subject *and* all the
hashtags used by that subject?

Would assume that the hashtags would have to be a setting,
the way you do with LSoft - and the thread refers to whatever
is after the hashtags?

dg


locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

 

Judy,

Does All Mail mean you are getting everything individually?
It means you get every message.

Individually, or in a daily digest, depending on the Daily digest checkbox. Likewise for the other selections.

I haven't actually tested this, but that's the inference I take from the controls and their description.

-- Shal


locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

 

Judy - You have to remember that users are not moving to Yahoo again. They're moving to a different group system; one that may have originated from the roots of Yahoo groups, but much changed and improved. They should expect that some things will be different than Yahoo. Mark is not recreating Yahoo groups here - he's trying to build something even better. Otherwise there would be no reason to move. Dano


locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

Judy F.
 

Shal, if members are used to Digest where you get all of the messages and
then all of a sudden Digest has a totally different meaning that will cause
a lot of confusion. Does All Mail mean you are getting everything
individually? If yes, maybe change that to also say as single messages or
something like that. Then describe Digest more clearly like from options
above.

All I will be doing is explaining how that works because I'm sure you know
that most people do not read.
Judy F.
SW Florida - USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Shal Farley [mailto:shal@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 4:54 AM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Re: Special Notices, it is done

Linda,

BTW I still find the placement of the Daily Digest option confusing.
The key is that it is a checkbox, independent of the other choices. This is
not the same as Yahoo Groups, where Digest is the same as "All", but in a
digest. The meaning in Groups.io is that whatever messages you get, as a
result of the other choices, arrive as a digest instead of individually.

-- Shal


locked Re: Find Group listing #suggestion

Duane
 

I checked it out this morning and I think it's perfect now.  I've been looking through the various groups to see if there were any of interest, but didn't want to join any more at the moment.  This way I know whether I should even try to check it out.


We want our groups listed in the directory so that folks can find us using a search, but we only allow members to access the messages.  Possibly interested folks can be anywhere in the world, so we don't always find them through personal contact.  We sometimes post personal information, like phone numbers or addresses to assist others, so private archives are important.


Thanks again,

Duane



locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

Duane
 

Thanks! This is probably the safest way to do things so that members don't get upset. After reading the other comments on this, I can see how it could be abused or not needed for some groups. Duane


locked Re: Bug in the Moderator Activity log

Duane
 

I think that I found a few more things that aren't quite right.


Member Activity

I created an event for testing.  It shows "added event" correctly, but when I deleted it, it shows as deleting a "repeating event" even though there were no repeats.


Moderator Activity

When I approve a message on the site, it shows up as approved via email.  Membership approvals correctly show via web.


Message Activity

All messages are appearing as "sent via email", even when posted from the site.


Thanks,

Duane



locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

 

Linda,

BTW I still find the placement of the Daily Digest option confusing.
The key is that it is a checkbox, independent of the other choices. This is not the same as Yahoo Groups, where Digest is the same as "All", but in a digest. The meaning in Groups.io is that whatever messages you get, as a result of the other choices, arrive as a digest instead of individually.

-- Shal


locked Re: Find Group listing #suggestion

 

Frances,

If there is no special status for "private groups", perhaps showing
up in the directory of groups should be a tick box for the list-owner.
I'd agree with this.

As a general principle I think unrelated effects should have separate controls. In this case, being listed or not in the directory has nothing to do with whether a group's archives are visible to non-members, and has nothing to do with how one becomes a member of the group.

I think that tying together and confounding these separate features under a single name, such as "private" only makes the product less flexible and more confusing. That's one of the many mistakes Yahoo Groups has made in recent years.

-- Shal


locked Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site today:

- Public archives/Private archives/Restricted in search listings
- Group posting now displays error messages if there are hashtag errors
- Group post/reply now checks for empty messages
- Special Notices are now a subscription option


Mark


locked Re: Special Notices, it is done

 

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:50 PM, JohnF via GROUPS.IO <user+1242@groups.io> wrote:

Mark, take a look at the description of the Special Notices Only option on the Subscription page.  It is the same as the description of Replies Only.  At least it looks that way to me.  I'm sure that's a quick fix.


Whoops! Fixed, thanks.

MArk 


locked Re: HTML safety in posted messages

 

Mark,

That's an interesting thought but I'm not sure it would improve
anything. At this point, I've got to believe that most(all?) modern
email clients have been hardened against these kinds of attacks.
Except for dinosaurs like me, who insist on using an Email client that hasn't seen an update since 2006 (Eudora Classic). On the other hand, when using its internal HTML rendering it supports so few HTML features (and no scripts at all) that it might be considered hardened. Or perhaps just petrified.

One benefit of having the emails match the archive is just that: the same user experience. But of course the downside is the flip side of that: some group might depend on a feature that is safe (enough) for them, but stripped in the archive.

Oh well, it was just a thought.

-- Shal