Date   

locked HTML safety in posted messages

 

dg,

And another FYI - it came through fine to my email - TBird, set up to
read HTML, but only compose in ascii.
Me too.

Mark Fletcher wrote:

Just FYI, the reason the other message doesn't show up correctly in the
archives is that you cut and pasted HTML radio button widgets.
I'm not sure what all the ramifications might be, but would it make sense for the email message bodies passed through also be "sanitized" - stripped of potentially harmful tags - just as the archive copy is?

That could provide a higher degree of confidence for members of Groups.io groups.

-- Shal


locked Re: Special messages

 

You're assuming special messages are extremely rare, but a group could make use of them more frequently.  Say, a group that produces a weekly newsletter.  Some people just want to get the newsletter each week, and some want to chat about it.

  • Users who want everything in mail, the newsletters and the commentary, just subscribe to all mail.
  • Users who just want the newsletter in mail could subscribe to special notices, with the rule that a moderator will always send out the newsletter as a special notice.  Only the newsletters (and really important stuff) get sent as special notices, so those users get what they want.
  • Users who don't want a weekly newsletter in their mail but want to read it online set their accounts to No Mail.

So that would be an example where No Mail and Special Notices would both be realistic settings for different users.

JohnF



locked Re: Special messages

Marlin47
 


Mark, years and years ago, when I was new at running groups, I actually paid attention to who was on "no mail".

Today, I could not possibly care less, even if I tried.

I remember back when I cared, I contacted a few people and asked why they were on no mail, I remember I had one reply that stood out, a guy told me that he was not allowed to use his computer at work for personal things.

So, he would access the web site and read the mail and post from the web site when the boss was away.

He said he could not afford to risk the possibility of getting mail from the group while at work.

I often wondered why he didn't use an online email address but, I figured that was his business, anyway he said that if he had to go to something other than no mail, he would have to leave the group.

He was one of the most active posters.

I suggest leaving the situation to where the individual members make their own choice.

I don't think it is any of the group owner's business how the member has his setting set.

Now, if you absolutely have to do something, make it impossible for the group owner to know if a member is on "no mail", problem solved.

Marlin





On 1/15/2015 7:41 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Shal,

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

"No Mail" is a feature that perennially generates heated commentary on the various Yahoo Groups moderator forums. Some moderators are adamant about preventing members from choosing the option, some members are equally vehement in asserting that messing with the member's delivery choice is a violation of the member's prerogatives.

Personally I think both sides in this argument are a bit foolish.


Thanks for your summary of the arguments. I'm really torn on this. I understand the people that want 'no mail' to mean no mail. I also understand the need from time to time for moderators to get in touch with users. And we make it easy enough for moderators to contact individual users from the website, regardless of their subscription setting.

I'm tempted to make no mail mean no mail except special messages, if for no other reason than it's simpler, and we already have a billion subscription options. If anyone feels very strongly in the other direction about this, please speak up now.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Today's updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site today:

- Fixed a crash bug when accessing integrations page when not subscribed to the group.
- Changed all search icons to be clickable.
- Backend work for special posts.
- When switching between archive message views (single message, list of messages, expanded messages), we remember where you are and what the sort direction is. Also, jumping to an individual message stays in your current message view. Basically, things are much better.

I've seen two instances today where the web site froze up. I have not yet tracked down the bug, but I am on it.

 
Mark


locked Re: Special messages

 

Shal,

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

"No Mail" is a feature that perennially generates heated commentary on the various Yahoo Groups moderator forums. Some moderators are adamant about preventing members from choosing the option, some members are equally vehement in asserting that messing with the member's delivery choice is a violation of the member's prerogatives.

Personally I think both sides in this argument are a bit foolish.


Thanks for your summary of the arguments. I'm really torn on this. I understand the people that want 'no mail' to mean no mail. I also understand the need from time to time for moderators to get in touch with users. And we make it easy enough for moderators to contact individual users from the website, regardless of their subscription setting.

I'm tempted to make no mail mean no mail except special messages, if for no other reason than it's simpler, and we already have a billion subscription options. If anyone feels very strongly in the other direction about this, please speak up now.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Special Messages

 

On 1/15/2015 9:09 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Just FYI, the reason the other message doesn't show up correctly in the
archives is that you cut and pasted HTML radio button widgets.
And another FYI - it came through fine to my email - TBird, set up to
read HTML, but only compose in ascii.

dg


locked Re: Special messages

 

Dano,

He'd reply to on-list comments from that same address with the full
inbox, so there was no way we could get a reply back through to him.
We finally dumped him from the group. He resubscribed - without ever
emptying his mailbox. We finally dropped him a second time.
Were the message archives in that group set to "moderators" or "off"? If not he might have been reading and replying from the group's pages. A full inbox (or otherwise bouncing status on the email address) isn't necessarily a problem from the member's point of view.

That wouldn't apply, of course, if he was email-only (no Yahoo ID listed for his membership).

-- Shal


locked Re: Site updates #changelog

Laurence Taylor
 

On 15 Jan 2015 09:42, Feathered Leader wrote:
Message Numbers!
Ooooh! Now I see them in the site AND in mail!
I don't see tham at all.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><


locked Re: Special Messages

 

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 7:01 AM, D R Stinson <dano@...> wrote:
Linda - I wonder if Replies Only shouldn't say "Only messages in threads you start OR POST IN are emailed to you." Dano
_._,_._,_
This is the behavior. I'll change the wording.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Special Messages

 

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Linda Star-Freedman <donlin2@...> wrote:
Hi,
I don't know why the following showed up only in View Original.  I'll retype it in Plain Text to make sure it gets through.


Just FYI, the reason the other message doesn't show up correctly in the archives is that you cut and pasted HTML radio button widgets. We strip out any input widgets (along with a lot of other stuff) before we display messages to prevent malicious activity.

Mark 


locked Re: Special messages

Frances
 

Hi

I don’t think anyone mentioned this - but Special Messages would be rare. On our travel group, Linda (list-owner) sends out one a year.

Frances

On Jan 15 15, at 11:50 AM, CatWoman <diana@catsandme.net> wrote:

On 1/15/2015 8:32 AM, Jim Fisher wrote:
The system should not be too quick to remove memberships based on messages
bouncing,
That's the issue with YG - they have a bounce list, but
unless a mod or owner checks it regularly - or someone
complains about no longer receiving mail, the email is
effectively set to nomail.

What MailMan does is send out a message the 1st of every
month - just basically a reminder to the person that they
are subbed to the group (a special notice, in effect).
Bounce notices are sent to the owner address and I think
the person is set to nomail.

LSoft sends out an annual probe - but it will remove any
email that bounces more than <X> times (Since I no longer
run any LSoft lists, I can't remember if the value of X
is set by the list owner or the system admin).

What I'd like to see is something between MailMan and
Yahoo - don't wait for the special message - but don't
just stick the email in a bounce list. Send a notice
to the owner that mail to <email> is bouncing.

This may be a place where, depending on the list, you
may want to store a phone number - or have an alternate
email address for members - so you can find out if they
know they are bouncing. We still have issues with this
on a list I own with one member and (presumably) DMARC,
because she gets some messages, but not all.

dg





locked Re: Special messages

 

On 1/15/2015 8:32 AM, Jim Fisher wrote:
The system should not be too quick to remove memberships based on messages
bouncing,
That's the issue with YG - they have a bounce list, but
unless a mod or owner checks it regularly - or someone
complains about no longer receiving mail, the email is
effectively set to nomail.

What MailMan does is send out a message the 1st of every
month - just basically a reminder to the person that they
are subbed to the group (a special notice, in effect).
Bounce notices are sent to the owner address and I think
the person is set to nomail.

LSoft sends out an annual probe - but it will remove any
email that bounces more than <X> times (Since I no longer
run any LSoft lists, I can't remember if the value of X
is set by the list owner or the system admin).

What I'd like to see is something between MailMan and
Yahoo - don't wait for the special message - but don't
just stick the email in a bounce list. Send a notice
to the owner that mail to <email> is bouncing.

This may be a place where, depending on the list, you
may want to store a phone number - or have an alternate
email address for members - so you can find out if they
know they are bouncing. We still have issues with this
on a list I own with one member and (presumably) DMARC,
because she gets some messages, but not all.

dg


locked Re: Special messages

 

The system should not be too quick to remove memberships based on messages
bouncing, even for people who have chosen to receive messages either singly or
as digest. Messages can bounce for a number of reasons, such as mailbox
temporarily full or, as happened to my wife recently, because of some system
glitch putting it out of action for a few days (in my wife's case it was out
for about 12 days because of a host service mix up with the DNS system making
her email, and my web site, inaccessible - corrected today). I don't remember
seeing anything on here about how bounced messages are treated by groups.io
(may be my memory - I haven't checked archives).

Jim Fisher

On 14 Jan 2015 at 21:18, Shal Farley wrote:

dg,

I know Yahoo doesn't do that - it just relies on
bounces - but that only hits those that have signed
on to get messages via email.
That's sort-of the point.

If they elect "No Mail" there's no point in probing that email address - they
can only be reading the message via the group's web pages. And if they are, it
is unfair to them to remove their membership just because the listed email
address is bogus.

-- Shal
--
http://www.jimella.me.uk - my personal web site covering many subjects
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com which doesn't spy on you


locked Re: Special messages

 

On 1/15/2015 12:39 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
On the whole I do side with "No Mail is my right". Even though an email address is required to establish a web-access membership, there's no reason to force the member to receive anything at that address. I just don't see any cause to get huffy about it: if you want to access the group's content but the owner is a control freak, set a filter. Done.
In my lists, several folks have more than one email address,
and all but one are set to nomail.

I do - in Yahoo it's a good idea to have an alternate address
to get mail from if your primary is compromised.

Or if you have device-dependent email (gmail for an android
device, something else for your iPhone, and a 3rd for a
computer - some people still use the POP option).

Or if you are going to be away and don't want mail piling
up.

And some folks are more comfortable reading on the web

IOW - I agree that NoMail is a valid option - I just
wouldn't want _it_ to be a requirement.

dg


locked Re: Special Messages

 

Linda - I wonder if Replies Only shouldn't say "Only messages in threads you start OR POST IN are emailed to you." Dano


locked Posting bug?

 

Just a note on my previous message #766. The two lines with '>' at the front had hard returns after them. I'm seeing that all the hard returns in the message were deleted. I'm assuming this is a bug, but did I perhaps do something wrong instead. I'd like to be able to reply to any message in plain text, but I'm not sure if this is plain text or RTF.

I'm one of those people who think that if you can't say something and get your point across in plain text, no amount of typography is going to make it any better. Thankfully we can set our groups to plain text, because we have some guys who would make their posts unreadable, either with outrageous formatting or text that was set so big it would all run off the page.

Dano


locked Re: Special messages

 

> Even though an email address is required to establish a web-access membership, > there's no reason to force the member to receive anything at that address. Shal, this is to address your line I've quoted above. It's just a story. It doesn't need a response. We ran into a problem with a member a year or so ago. I dont remember the particulars, but we needed to contact him off-list and he was hard bouncing because his mail box was full. We tried several times both on and off list. He'd reply to on-list comments from that same address with the full inbox, so there was no way we could get a reply back through to him. We finally dumped him from the group. He resubscribed - without ever emptying his mailbox. We finally dropped him a second time. We left a message on the list that if anybody knew him, to explain he was welcome to come back if he'd just empty his mail box. Long story short, yes there is a reason to be able to contact people. But allowing special messages wouldn't have made any difference there either. As Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid." Dano


locked Re: Special Messages

Linda
 

Hi,
I don't know why the following showed up only in View Original. I'll retype it in Plain Text to make sure it gets through.

This is my suggested list of mail options.
Please see No Email description in particular.

* All Email
Every message is mailed to you.

* First Message Only
The first message of every thread is emailed to you, along with all messages from threads you start. You can decide to receive additional messages from threads you're interested in.

* Replies Only
Only messages in threads you start are emailed to you.

* Daily Digest
Group messages together as one email instead of individually.

* No Email.
You will receive no emails except Special Notices

What do you think?

Linda


locked Re: Special messages

Linda
 

Hi,
What do you think about these mail options? 
Please pay particular attention to the last one:
 
All Email
Every message is emailed to you.

First Message Only
The first message of every thread is emailed to you, along with all messages from threads you start. You can decide to receive additional messages from threads you're interested in.

Replies Only
Only messages in threads you start are emailed to you. On the website you can specify threads that will be emailed to you.
 
Daily digest:
Group messages together as one email instead of individually.
 
No Email
You will receive no emails except Special Notices.
 
Linda
 
 


locked Re: Site updates #changelog

Nightowl >8#
 

Message Numbers!

Ooooh! Now I see them in the site AND in mail!

AWESOME!

Brenda