Date   

locked Re: Jump to the beginning/end

Nightowl >8#
 

Thank you!!!!!

I live for message numbers. ;)

Brenda


locked Re: Special messages

 

Ronaldo,

As to Shal's suggestion, yes, it would be useful if the creator/owner of
a group could block the "nomail" option.
That was Duane's suggestion, not mine. I actually disagree.

"No Mail" is a feature that perennially generates heated commentary on the various Yahoo Groups moderator forums. Some moderators are adamant about preventing members from choosing the option, some members are equally vehement in asserting that messing with the member's delivery choice is a violation of the member's prerogatives.

Personally I think both sides in this argument are a bit foolish.

On the "prohibit No Mail" side, their arguments remind me of a scene from _A Clockwork Orange_. What, by sending a Special Notice do you think you've strapped the member down, forced open their eyelids and forced them to read the message? Get real: the member who selects No Mail probably did so for a reason, otherwise they would have selected Special Notices. They may never check that Inbox. Or they may have complied with your silly rule but secretly added a filter to their email to trash any message from Yahoo Groups (or just your group).

On the "No Mail is my right" side, the argument is the flip side of the coin. Why do you insist on listing that address for group delivery, then set it no No Mail? Ok, I get it, you read the messages only on the group's site. But if having a moderator change your setting and force through a message causes some harm to you that's sort-of on you: don't use your work email, or a metered email for a Yahoo Group subscription - that's what a free webmail account is for.

On the whole I do side with "No Mail is my right". Even though an email address is required to establish a web-access membership, there's no reason to force the member to receive anything at that address. I just don't see any cause to get huffy about it: if you want to access the group's content but the owner is a control freak, set a filter. Done.

-- Shal


locked Re: Database Wishlist #suggestion

 

Brenda,

Question: if someone creates their own database, are they allowed to
transport that data elsewhere even if it was created on Yahoo?
If by "their own" you mean that the entire database table is created by a single someone, then yes of course: that person is always free to give himself/herself permission to publish his/her own content in other venues.

In other words, Yahoo in its TOS does not claim ownership of the members' contributions, it only claims non-exclusive license to display the contributions.

For databases built by multiple contributors the situation is murkier. As far as I know Yahoo's TOS doesn't distinguish between different types of content: the member's contribution is the member's contribution. In Yahoo Groups it would be possible, in principle, to distinguish the rows contributed by (or last edited by) each member.

That said, I don't think the current implementation reveals authorship for database content in any way (not in the database itself nor in the activity logs). I don't remember specifically, but I don't think Classic did either. So there are practical difficulties with respecting ownership of members' content within the database. The question of "allowed" then boils down to a question of how a dispute could possibly be decided. With a total absence of evidence of ownership I think the members would have to simply look upon the database table as a collaborative content, with no part of it specifically owned by any member.

But I am not a lawyer, so if you move a database and end up in a dispute with other people about their ownership of the content don't cite me as giving you permission.

-- Shal


locked Re: Database Wishlist #suggestion

Nightowl >8#
 

I would just like to see a database feature added to the site. Then all the people who's databases were destroyed can come here and build new ones.

Question: if someone creates their own database, are they allowed to transport that data elsewhere even if it was created on Yahoo?

Brenda


locked Re: Some more suggestions #suggestion

Nightowl >8#
 

Tyger wrote:>>I see two general features as priority items so far: Photos and Databases.  I know photos is already underway, and see it as a priority because a lot of groups share photos as a reason for their existsance, or otherwise would find it a nice feature to use.  Common, popular, and very useful, nuff said.  I suggest Databases as an equal priority to Photos because we know that Yahoo hosed theirs up, and so many groups are in the market for a new home specifically because of that.  These two features would help increase appeal and get more testers and feedback available sooner.  Local activity groups make a good degree of use of that type feature for things like address lists, etc. so it could be helpful to them right away.  Plus the more reminiscent of our old homes the better. :)  This is not to exclude any things in the works now, or trivialize <<

I could not agree more on the database issue. It was one of the worst things people could have lost. So many people counted on that database feature.

I didn't think Mark was going to create a database feature for us though, has he changed his mind? I hope so, because I can't even begin to understand the wiki.

Brenda



locked Re: Special messages

 

dg,

I know Yahoo doesn't do that - it just relies on
bounces - but that only hits those that have signed
on to get messages via email.
That's sort-of the point.

If they elect "No Mail" there's no point in probing that email address - they can only be reading the message via the group's web pages. And if they are, it is unfair to them to remove their membership just because the listed email address is bogus.

-- Shal


locked Re: Special messages

ro-esp
 

No, doesn't look like you missed anything.

I just want to add that it seems more practical if special notices are sent *separately* from the digest - especially on busy groups.


As to Shal's suggestion, yes, it would be useful if the creator/owner of a group could block the "nomail" option.


                                      groetjes, Ronaldo


locked Re: Special messages

 

On 1/14/2015 6:59 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
Dg, I'm aware of the various mail delivery options, but I didn't realize that's what Mark was referring to. I guess it was the terminology.
Glad to be of help!

I kinda think that I agree with whoever said that Special
Notices - "administrivia" - should be like a blast - goes
to everyone in the group. And that it is reserved for
that specific purpose - something that really impacts the
entire group, no matter how they usually access the group.

I'm also of the opinion that there should be an annual
"blast" message the way LSoft does for ListServe lists.
It just sends a test message to every email address on
the list. If it doesn't bounce, it just says "ignore
this message". If it does bounce - that email address
is no longer working. Setting it to NoMail, or deleting
it completely - not sure what LSoft does. I think
MailMan does the same thing - all it wants to do is
make sure that the email address it is trying to send
mail to is valid - even for those who don't receive
messages via email.

I know Yahoo doesn't do that - it just relies on
bounces - but that only hits those that have signed
on to get messages via email.

dg


locked Re: Special messages

Judy F.
 

Hi Mark, now that I understand that a special message is the equivalent to a Special Notice in Yahoo, I agree with all of your bullets. 

 

Thanks again for all you are doing on this.

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:52 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Special messages

 

As part of getting ready for group transfers, I'm adding the ability to send special messages, like Yahoo has. I'm a bit unfamiliar with exactly how they work, can someone fill me in? Here's what I think, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

- Special messages can only be created through posting through the website and checking the special box

- In addition to the normal subscription options, there's a 'Special Messages only' option

- Special messages get delivered to everyone except people who have their subscription set to no mail.

- If a person is on digest, the special message is included in the digest

- Only moderators and owners can send special messages

- If the person sending the special message is moderated (or the group is), the special message needs to be approved first, like normal messages.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Thanks,

Mark


locked Re: Special messages

Judy F.
 

Dg, I'm aware of the various mail delivery options, but I didn't realize that's what Mark was referring to. I guess it was the terminology.

Thanks,

Judy F.
SW Florida - USA

-----Original Message-----
From: CatWoman [mailto:diana@catsandme.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:28 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Special messages

On 1/14/2015 5:17 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
When would the special message as you mentioned be used?All of the
messages I mentioned above are in the files section of the group and
have various scheduling options the owner/moderator can select.
Administrative messages. Check your group setting for how you get your email - there are 4 options:

Individual messages - you get one message in your email for each message posted to the group (meaning - you're using it as a mailing list)

Digest - you get a collection of messages - either 1 day's worth, one week's worth, or after some quantity of messages has accumulated (I don't remember which option YG uses because I do not like digest).

No Messages - nothing from the group appears in your email - you have to go to the group web page to read any posts

"Special Notices", also called Admin Notifications, which are only able to be sent by an owner or moderator, and go to everyone who has not chosen "No Messages" (at least that's how it used to work - it may be that Special notices now go to everyone, even those on NoMail).

Special Notices are for things like reminding people to keep on topic, letting the list know about a shutdown, or a re-name of the group, or anything "administrivia".

dg


locked Re: Special messages

 

On 1/14/2015 5:17 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
When would the special message as you mentioned be used?All of the
messages I mentioned above are in the files section of the group and
have various scheduling options the owner/moderator can select.
Administrative messages. Check your group setting for how you get your
email - there are 4 options:

Individual messages - you get one message in your email for each message
posted to the group (meaning - you're using it as a mailing list)

Digest - you get a collection of messages - either 1 day's worth, one
week's worth, or after some quantity of messages has accumulated (I
don't remember which option YG uses because I do not like digest).

No Messages - nothing from the group appears in your email - you have to
go to the group web page to read any posts

"Special Notices", also called Admin Notifications, which are only able
to be sent by an owner or moderator, and go to everyone who has not
chosen "No Messages" (at least that's how it used to work - it may be
that Special notices now go to everyone, even those on NoMail).

Special Notices are for things like reminding people to keep on topic,
letting the list know about a shutdown, or a re-name of the group, or
anything "administrivia".

dg


locked Re: Special messages

Duane
 

On Yahoo, a Special Message was (is?) a very important item that all members need to be aware of.  The only time I used it was on a group that I was moving to another site.  I wanted to make sure that everyone was aware of it.


Which brings me to another suggestion.  Instead of a "No Email" option, make it "Special Notices Only".  On the group I moved, I had to go in and change everyone on No Email to Special Notices to make sure everyone saw it.  If the feature is used properly, it should amount to almost the same thing.  The other option would be something similar to what is used on BigTent.  There's a feature named Blast that sends the message to everyone, regardless of their message settings.  Either should only be available to Owners/Moderators.  Making it an option for the Moderators might not be a bad idea either.


Duane



locked Re: Muting individual users

Frances
 

Thanks!

Obviously not first priority.

Frances

On Jan 14 15, at 7:58 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

So, Frances, what you're saying is that you want to mute me. That's it, isn't it? My mother told me I could never please everyone, but I didn't believe her. I guess I was wrong. Sorry mom!

:-)

Ahem. Yep, I think it'd be a useful feature, and it's on the todo list. For various reasons, it's a little tricky to implement, so it's a longer term project. But yeah, I'd like to have it available.

Thanks,
Mark
(I really was kidding above. It's been a long day in front of the computer.)

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
Hi

I realize I can mute threads, but what about muting one member of the group? I mean without muting the thread.

You can in Google+:
And here’s about Twitter:

Would that be useful?

Frances





locked Re: Site updates #changelog

Judy F.
 

Mark, I like others, would like to see the message number at the top rather than the bottom. 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:18 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Site updates #updates

 

Changes to the site today:

 

- In the archives, much improved collapsing of replies in HTML emails.

- Message number now appears in message footers.

- Fixed a bug with the previous / next links in archive single message view; sometimes it would not link to a correct message, causing it to jump back to the main archive page.

 

 

Mark


locked Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site today:

- In the archives, much improved collapsing of replies in HTML emails.
- Message number now appears in message footers.
- Fixed a bug with the previous / next links in archive single message view; sometimes it would not link to a correct message, causing it to jump back to the main archive page.


Mark


locked Re: Special messages

Judy F.
 

Mark, I would like a better description of a ‘special message’.  I ask this because currently, we have what I could call a special message such as a message that goes to a person that is pended waiting to be approved, when they are approved, when they leave the group, file type messages that are sent each month that have the group rules, etc. 

 

When would the special message as you mentioned be used?  All of the messages I mentioned above are in the files section of the group and have various scheduling options the owner/moderator can select. 

 

Thanks,

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:52 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Special messages

 

As part of getting ready for group transfers, I'm adding the ability to send special messages, like Yahoo has. I'm a bit unfamiliar with exactly how they work, can someone fill me in? Here's what I think, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

- Special messages can only be created through posting through the website and checking the special box

- In addition to the normal subscription options, there's a 'Special Messages only' option

- Special messages get delivered to everyone except people who have their subscription set to no mail.

- If a person is on digest, the special message is included in the digest

- Only moderators and owners can send special messages

- If the person sending the special message is moderated (or the group is), the special message needs to be approved first, like normal messages.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Thanks,

Mark


locked Re: Special messages

 

Mark,

- Special messages can only be created through posting through the
website and checking the special box
By design yes. But someone once discovered that it was possible to include the correct X- header (copied from a special notice you received) as the first line of an email message (or in the header if your email client allows you to add custom fields) to cause a message posted by email to go out as a special notice. I don't know if that "hack" still works. You should probably ignore it, or else come up with a more user-friendly implementation.

- If a person is on digest, the special message is included in the
digest
And also sent to that person as an individual message. That was an improvement made in the last couple of years, originally members on digest would see it only in the digest.

And of course, the special notice posts to the message archive.

-- Shal


locked Re: Muting individual users

 

So, Frances, what you're saying is that you want to mute me. That's it, isn't it? My mother told me I could never please everyone, but I didn't believe her. I guess I was wrong. Sorry mom!

:-)

Ahem. Yep, I think it'd be a useful feature, and it's on the todo list. For various reasons, it's a little tricky to implement, so it's a longer term project. But yeah, I'd like to have it available.

Thanks,
Mark
(I really was kidding above. It's been a long day in front of the computer.)

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
Hi

I realize I can mute threads, but what about muting one member of the group? I mean without muting the thread.

You can in Google+:
And here’s about Twitter:

Would that be useful?

Frances



locked Special messages

 

As part of getting ready for group transfers, I'm adding the ability to send special messages, like Yahoo has. I'm a bit unfamiliar with exactly how they work, can someone fill me in? Here's what I think, please correct me if I'm wrong:

- Special messages can only be created through posting through the website and checking the special box
- In addition to the normal subscription options, there's a 'Special Messages only' option
- Special messages get delivered to everyone except people who have their subscription set to no mail.
- If a person is on digest, the special message is included in the digest
- Only moderators and owners can send special messages
- If the person sending the special message is moderated (or the group is), the special message needs to be approved first, like normal messages.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Disable archives?

 

Mark,

Is it like a message board/forum just moving to new software? I think
that's considered acceptable. Or is it like moving to a whole
different place on the 'net?
I think what matters, both ethically and legally, is the contract not the software.

Yahoo's TOS constitutes a contract between Yahoo and the members regarding the content they post. That contract may be transferable to successors or assigns (in the event of a sale of Yahoo's assets), but there's no way that it transfers to a competing service.

A message board/forum owner who changes hosting services may not need any permission from the members. In that case the members' contract is likely with the board/forum owner, and the owner's contract with the hosting service is a separate matter.

The distinction matters ethically because the member has a reasonable expectation of certain rights and obligations based on the terms of service that the member agreed to.

-- Shal